Testimony of Juergen Neumann | Did Six Million Really Die?

Jürgen Neumann

[Jürgen Neumann was the fifth defence witness. He testified on March 10, 1988.]

Jürgen Neumann, aged 37, testified that he had known Zündel since 1975 when they met at a meeting in Buffalo, New York, of an organization known as Friends of Germany. Neumann attended the meetings originally as a favour to his father, who was German. He accompanied him to the meetings to see what the organization was about. (22-5463, 5464)

Neumann did not have a conversation with Zündel until about three months later when they met again at a similar meeting of the same organization. Neumann spoke to Zündel very briefly but could not remember what the conversation was about. Zündel was at the meeting selling books and Neumann had purchased one entitled UFO's: Nazi Secret Weapon?. Neumann testified that he didn't particularly believe the book after reading it. (22-5463, 5464, 5465)

At this second meeting, one of the speakers mentioned some doubts about the Holocaust. It was the first time Neumann had heard any questioning of the event and he felt rather offended by it. The comment nevertheless piqued his curiosity and he did, in fact, purchase one or two booklets from other people selling books at the meeting. One of the them was Did Six Million Really Die?. (22-5465, 5466)

Neumann telephoned Zündel later and asked him if he had any books for sale. Neumann and his father visited Zündel's house in Toronto pursuant to an invitation by him. Neumann remembers a very busy office that had a number of people walking around. Zündel, who at that time was still into commercial art and advertising, was also very busy. They talked about the Holocaust. Although Neumann had read Did Six Million Really Die? and other books, and found them very persuasive, he still wasn't 100 percent sure one way or the other. It was Zündel who finally convinced Neumann, over a period of a year, through his sincerity, logic and whole demeanour that the Holocaust was exaggerated. (22-5466, 5467)

During that year, Neumann looked at many books. Zündel had a very large library of perhaps 3,000 books, and he allowed Neumann to avail himself of them at any time. Not all of the books were revisionist; the library included books holding different views on many subjects including the Holocaust. Neumann read books from Zündel's library and also obtained books from other sources. (22-5467, 5468)

Zündel impressed Neumann as a very sincere individual. He actually seemed to believe exactly what he said and he told it to Neumann straight. He never avoided any questions that Neumann asked of him. That was what impressed Neumann at the time and still impressed him today. (22-5468)

Since meeting Zündel, Neumann had been asked by him to do many things, including on-going research into the subject. This indicated to Neumann that Zündel was sincere about the subject and that he continually attempted to widen his field of factual knowledge as any historian would. (22-5469)

Neumann saw Zündel perhaps once a month after the first few meetings with him. After 1979 or 1980, however, he saw him very frequently. This change came about after the showing on TV of the film Holocaust. Zündel asked people to come out and help demonstrate against the film because he considered it to be anti-German propaganda. Neumann gladly helped with these demonstrations. (22-5469, 5470)

In 1979 and 1980, they demonstrated in front of different places such as newspaper offices and TV stations. They also printed up many pamphlets which they stuffed and mailed to radio stations, TV stations, historians, and Members of Parliament. (22-5470)

Zündel had a never-ending supply of energy when it came to these sorts of activities. He never wavered once in his opinions or pronouncements on the subject. Zündel thought the same of it today as when he first met him, said Neumann. He was always trying to bring truth into a debate which Neumann considered should be made public. (22-5470)

In 1981, they invested in video equipment and started producing videos on the subject of Holocaust revisionism, Allied war crimes and things of that nature. Depending on the complexity of the subject, producing the video took anywhere from two to six months. Neumann was the cameraman for these films and also did editing and research for historical footage. (22-5471, 5472)

On cross-examination, Neumann agreed that apart from his family, there was no one he knew better, no one he considered a greater friend or whom he admired more, than Zündel. Asked if it would be fair to say that he had become Zündel's right hand man, Neumann testified it would not. He had become very close to Zündel but would not say he was his right hand man. (22-5473, 5474)

He agreed he was very involved in Zündel's activities and had been for some time. Supporting Zündel had become Neumann's major interest, not his major occupation. He did a fair amount of plumbing to obtain money to live. He had worked for Zündel the odd time in the past. He did all kinds of things for Zündel, including typing and administrative work, research, camera work and work in the creation of the productions he sold to the public. (22-5474, 5475)

Neumann read Did Six Million Really Die? before he actually discussed the subject in great detail with Zündel. (22-5475)

He could not recall what other books Zündel was selling at the meeting in Buffalo, except the one he purchased. He agreed, however, that Zündel was selling Holocaust denial literature. Neumann purchased UFO's: Nazi Secret Weapon? published by Samisdat Publishers Ltd., Zündel's publishing company. (22-5476) Neumann knew that "Christof" and "Friedrich" were Zündel's middle names. Zündel wrote the UFO book and used the name Friedrich to indicate he had written it. (22-5477)

Neumann agreed that it was clear from the beginning of his discussions with Zündel that he claimed to believe that the Holocaust didn't happen. Zündel was the main impetus in convincing Neumann to that belief. He agreed that he had become heavily involved in Holocaust denial since that time and took advantage of every opportunity he had to publicly discuss it. (22-5477, 5478)

The Crown asked Neumann if both he and Zündel were opposed to racial integration. Neumann testified that his own personal opinion was that he did not agree with racial integration but that it was up to each individual. Zündel held generally the same views. (22-5478)

Asked if he and Zündel considered it important to preserve racial integrity, Neumann testified that he didn't consider it outrageously important. He testified that, personally, he would certainly prefer racial integrity over racial integration. (22-5479)

Neumann did not agree that one of the messages in Did Six Million Really Die? was that racial purity should be preserved. He agreed that under the heading "The Race Problem Suppressed," the pamphlet's author stated that "...any rational discussion of the problems of Race and the effort to preserve racial integrity" were prevented by the Holocaust. (22-5479)

Asked if his view was that the Holocaust was being used to enrich Jews and preserve the state of Israel, Neumann testified that he believed the Holocaust had been very lucrative in that direction. In reaching that position, his discussions with Zündel had been of assistance. (22-5480)

Neumann did not agree that a great deal of Nazi memorabilia, which he defined to be medals, uniforms, helmets, etc., was sold by Samisdat Publishers. He did not consider historic marches and battle songs to be "memorabilia." He agreed, however, that Zündel published a great deal of material that dealt with the Nazi regime. Neumann testified that, to his knowledge, Samisdat never published Mein Kampf in German; it did publish German Secret Weapons of World War II. (22-5481)

Neumann was shown a document which he identified as a very old Samisdat catalogue. Neumann agreed that the catalogue advertised The Six Million Swindle by Mr. App; Did Six Million Really Die? by Richard Harwood, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century by Prof. Arthur Butz; UFO's: Nazi Secret Weapon? and a whole page advertising Nazi secret weapon posters. (22-5484, 5485; entered as Exhibit 97 at 22-5489)

Neumann agreed that the catalogue also listed tapes sold by Samisdat, including "Samisdat Media Tactics I." This advertisement stated:

Ernst Zündel shows us how he introduces forbidden and censored subjects on the airwaves. Listen how he gets in to win with the entertaining wedge of a 'far-out' topic (UFO's) and proceeds to drive home the facts about Allied war crimes, the myth of the six million, Canadian concentration camps, communist infiltration, racial and Jewish problems; all subjects known to very few Northamericans. This fantastic presentation was broadcast for 2 hours on a live, uncensored, coast-to-coast radio talkshow.

Neumann agreed that the catalogue listed another tape entitled "Samisdat Media Tactics II":

Ernst Zündel shows us how he gets onto the media and stays on. Listen to this series of interviews with media professionals and experience the no-holds-barred verbal battle of wits in which one interviewer attempts to blackmail Ernst Zündel.

Neumann further agreed that the catalogue advertised another tape, number 140:

As Ernst Zündel and Samisdat unmask one Zionist hoax after another, we received 'Zionist Hatecalls' which reveal the sickness and satanic hatred of those who conceal their true motives behind such words such as 'liberalism', 'democracy' and 'human rights'. For revealing the 'holocaust' as a money-making Zionist hoax, Ernst Zündel received this barrage of psychotic verbal abuse, including vile threats of murder and mutilation against him and his family.

Neumann agreed that the catalogue also advertised a tape entitled "Dr. Robert Faurisson Speaks":

Listen as Professor Robert Faurisson of France tackles the problems of alleged gas chambers which were supposedly used to gas millions of people during WW II.

Neumann agreed that the catalogue advertised videocassette films that he was involved in making. (22-5487, 5488) He agreed that the catalogue advertised a cassette entitled "Nazi cinema":

Here you will find samples of films made during the time of the 3rd Reich. First is the complete, official version of the celebration of Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday in Berlin. Marvel at the magnificent architecture of Berlin, the 100's of thousands of cheering well-wishers and the longest military parade in German history (German narration). Next are segments from three different films; a) The Festival of German Art in München, in 1938, b) The Thanksgiving Festival at Bückeberg; and c) The Eternal Jew, this segment dealing with kosher slaughtering practice. The first two are in state-of-the-art color and all 3 have English subtitles, as well as German narration.

The Crown suggested to Neumann that what he referred to as anti-German propaganda was actually anti-Nazi. Neumann did not agree; nor did he agree that one of the major victims of the Nazi regime were the German people. At one point back in time he used to think that what he referred to as anti-German propaganda was actually anti-Nazi. But as one got more and more into it, it was quite obvious that "Nazi" was just a buzzword to pass off as anti-German. For example, in the film The Wall where men in Nazi helmets were doing nasty things to Jews, the word "Nazi " was never used once. The word used over and over again was "German." Generally, the words "Nazi" and "German" were used so interchangeably that it amounted to anti-German propaganda. Many of the people Neumann talked to perceived it that way. (22-5491)

The video Genocide by Propaganda was described in the catalogue as a "hard hitting refutation of the Holocaust Legend by Ernst Zündel." In this video, said Neumann, Zündel was certainly as sincere as he had been all the time he had known him. It was a film version of Zündel's beliefs. (22-5492)

The video Zionist Uprising dealt with a mass demonstration of about 1500 people outside Zündel's home in 1981, the problems that arose, and the reasons why Zündel felt the demonstrations had taken place. Neumann was present during the demonstration and took part in editing the final film. He testified there was no attempt at dishonesty in the film. (22-5493)

The tape dealing with the Frank Walus story was put forward as an indication of how the Holocaust became exaggerated. Walus was accused of being a war criminal in Chicago. He was stripped of his citizenship and was about to be deported when it was discovered that he was not the person they claimed him to be. There were 11 or 12 eyewitnesses who placed Walus at the scene of the crime allegedly committed against Jews but it turned out he was nowhere near the place at the time. (22-5494)

Judge Thomas intervened: "Well, this is getting a little beyond what is acceptable." He instructed Christie that the details of the Walus case were irrelevant.

Neumann testified that Zündel had made the film to give a message to the public on his views. In the film, Frank Walus was interviewed by Zündel. (22-5495, 5496)

In the tape "Counterattack against Hate," the catalogue stated:

Now you too can sit in at the press conference held at Samisdat Headquarters in Toronto, Canada and watch the sparks fly! Relive this battle for Truth as the Canadian Media are taken to task by Ernst Zündel...

Neumann testified that he was at the press conference and that it was "pretty exciting." The advertisement was a very accurate depiction of what occurred.

The catalogue also stated that Zündel was a "well-known champion of Truth and Justice for all in the 'war crimes' issue." Neumann testified that Zündel's position was that if war crimes trials were going to take place, all war criminals should be put on trial, including Canadians and Israelis, and not just Germans. (22-5496)

Neumann was familiar with the video The Anne Frank Diary Hoax featuring Zündel, Ditlieb Felderer and Eric Thomson; in his opinion, it was consistent with Did Six Million Really Die? (22-5499, 5500)

Neumann testified that Nazi cinema of the type advertised by Samisdat was relatively commonly available in the United States. (22-5500)

Neumann had listened to the tapes of interviews with Dr. Butz, Dr. Faurisson and Father Strasser. None were inconsistent with the views expressed in Did Six Million Really Die?. The book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century advertised in the catalogue did not have any views which fundamentally disagreed with Richard Harwood's views. (22-5503, 5504)

The advertising blurb describing Did Six Million Really Die? was also consistent with Zündel's beliefs:

Historian Richard Harwood performs the task of jury duty which every thinking human being should have done more than 30 years ago. Harwood examines the evidence which has been offered as "irrefutable proof" that six million Jews were gassed by the Germans in World War II concentration camps.

The book The Six Million Swindle generally had the same thesis as the pamphlet Did Six Million Really Die?. It was described in the Samisdat catalogue as follows:

J. App exposes the profit motive and the profiteers behind the manufacture and sale of wartime anti-German hate propaganda, specifically the hoax of the so-called six million holocaust of the Jews who supposedly died in Nazi extermination camps.

Neumann testified that when Zündel spoke of forbidden and censored topics in the "Samisdat Media Tactics" tapes, he was referring to subjects such as Holocaust revisionism which never seemed to get a hearing in the media for the general public's consumption. (22-5506)

The concepts expressed in this document are protected by the basic human right to freedom of speech, as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, reaffirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court as applying to the Internet content on June 26, 1997.

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