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Truth, Justice and Human Rights
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in the Middle East
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For past feedbacks click HERE
NOTE: Due to the large volume of feedbacks, especially following the
al-Aqsa (September 2000) Uprising, and due to the limited resources of this
site, not all feedbacks will be printed/responded to anymore. Long feedbacks,
especially from a single visitor, or feedbacks making similar argument to ones
responded to before, might be truncated and/or omitted altogether
1 Feb 2001
sam
i'm worried about your site
it hasnt been updated since 10 dec 2000 and there are large chunks missing from
the feedback
can you check in regularly so we know you're alive?
regards
mark
Thank you Mark for your concern. Not sure what parts are missing from the
feedback. I just looked, and they're still there. --Sam
24 Jan 2001
Despite your lame denials, it is obvious that you are a Jew-hating
racist with Nazi sympathies. You publish Jew-hating letters (there is no
meaningful distinction between Anti-semitism and Anti-zionism anyway Norman
Finkelstein, Israel Shahak and others have made clear their complete contempt
for ALL jews as a people and their desire that they be extinguished). You would
no doubt love it if once your pals got into power, that they committed genocide
against all Jewish people, including your deluded supporters. Then you would
finally be able to complete Hitler's work, which your beloved MUFTI was unable
to accomplish in the 1940s.
>Despite your lame denials, it is obvious that you are a Jew-hating
>racist with Nazi sympathies.
Is it at all possible that what I say here bothered you, and your inability
to respond to my claims rationally and logically, is what made you label me
as such?
Next, please specify what "Jew-hating letters" you saw on this site. Also you
need to show where you found that Finkelstein, Shahak and others as haveing
"made clear their complete contempt for ALL Jews as a people and their desire
that they be extinguished)". That's slipping too much into the absurd .. a
last straw measure it seems, that's symptomatic to blind supporters of Israel.
Do you have anything to add aside from the Mufti case? It is hard for the
world, and for me even, to accept that the ENTIRE Zionist cause is built on this
single Palestinian individual (not to mention the Israel-accepted-partion-but-
the-Arabs-rejected-it justification) -- an issue which is brought up again
and again by supporters of Israel, as though it justifies or even explains what
Israel later did to the Palestinians in 1948! I thought Zionism had more to
it as an ideology than simply "THE MUFTI".
Nevertheless, I have responded to the mufti question several times here. Ben
Gurion relied on the Mufti's extreme REACTIONS and RHETORIC -- to Jewish
immigration and slow disposession of the Palestinians! "Rely on the Mufti"
became his motto, used to justify Zionist crimes against the Palestinians.
Sam
24 Jan 2001
Hi, I'm a regular visitor to your site. I wanted to ask you briefly for your
help. I'm a student in a university which in the last 2 years has seen a
dramatic increase in the number of Arab students, we're starting a new club with
limited resources to raise awareness of Palestinian (and Arab) human rights
violiations. One of the things we're planning immediately is a webpage, and I
want my sources to be mostly western/Israeli like yours. So would you mind if
used your webpage for information (all the articles and things)? And another
thing, I know there's a zillion webpages and sites out there, but could you
direct to me to other informative ones with credible sources such as yours about
the Middle East and Palestine (other than the obvious sites that you use such as
Haaretz and them)?
Lastly, I really like the format of your page, so we might copy a few of your
concepts if you don't mind, such as the quotes, easy to read which is good, and
a feedback page. If its ok with you maybe we can even provide a link to your
site and others, I know you don't email visitors, so I'll check to see when you
reply to this feedback.
I would really appreciate if you could help me out, since I found your site
purely by coincidence to begin with and have been unable to find anymore quite
as good, as complete, and as informative. Thank you for your time, I hope your
page is on the internet forever (I've been using it on all sorts of political
forums over the internet to make my point, CNN even banned me three times from
posting messages), which is scary the more they control the internet and try to
regulate it the more dangerous freedom of expression may become, just like in
mainstream media. I hope the internet keeps its current degree of freedom of
speech.
Thanks
Feel free to use the info on this site as you please, the articles posted are not
"mine" anyway; I merely collect them. If possible, though, provide a link and credit
to this site. Thanks for your support. -- Sam
24 Jan 2001
Dear Sam,
I'm very sorry for wasting my precious time reading your site, but at the same
time I can learn how some people can live with hatred instead of doing something
productive with its live.
This is exactly what people like you or Mr. Arafat are doing, thinking that
hatred will give you a good way of living, and prosperity.
I feel sorry for you, and continue like that because you'll reach god soon.
I would recommend you to read Thomas Friedman, and then you will understand why
all the arab world is making "potato chips" instead "chips of microprocessors".
Regards,
Jorge
> some people can live with hatred instead of doing something productive with
> its live
That's like describing all people who try to remember the holocaust against
Jews or Jews who ask for reparations from the German government, as "Living
with hatred" (for the Nazi).
When I tell you about the murderous robber who killed my loved ones, took my
house and possessions; a criminal who is well known, but was never punished
(actually, he tricked many to think he's humane) how would you react? Do you
really feel intelligent describing me as "filled with hatred for the killer/
robber"? I am here informing a misinformed world about what Israel did to the
Palestinians --while covering itself with a humane facade-- and calling for
correcting this wrong.
Your reaction is largely a byproduct of Israel's PR industry -- one of the
knee-jerk responses it disseminates to cover up for its crimes. Thomas Friedman
is part of that industry, although he's one of the more subtle supporters
of Israel, unlike Safire & Co. So when Friedman redicules the backwardness of
the Arab world --after throwing a passing criticism of Israel to appear
"balanced"-- how is that related to justice for the Palestinians .. justice
that has been taken away by Israel? Or is that a diversion ploy, that
supporters of Israel use?
Sam
21 Jan 2001
The Duluth, MN Loaves and Fishes Catholic Worker community recently used the
Schwarzkopf quote, "I want every Iraqi soldier bleeding from every orifice," on
a flyer we handed out. I'd like to know the source of that quote since it's not
cited on your page, and i don't know you well enough to just trust you on it!
i found this page through a search engine. thanks for your thorough, important
work!
mali
heymali@
That quote can be found in Ramsey Clark's "The Fire This Time" 1994 book
introduction/forward. --Sam
21 Jan 2001
Dear Sam:
I am absolutely amazed at how well you put together your website. I have a
suggestion that could make you completely delegitimize any Jewish claim to the
Holy Land. Now we all know that the Zionist Jews have two justifications for
their THEFT of Palestine: (1) The racial claim that they are all originally from
Israel, and (2) the religious claim that they brutally confiscated Palestine
because they were following the orders of God. I'm pretty sure you already know
this, but just in case you didn't know, all the Jews in the world (except the
Sephardic Jews who comprise only 10% of world Jewry) are originally from a
non-Semitic, Turkic tribe called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism around at
740 AD. I strongly suggest you get a book called The Thirteenth Tribe, written
by Arthur Koestler, a truely righteous anti-Zionist Jew (who was found murdered
along with his wife in his London home. And despite clear evidence that it was
murdered, the police passed it off as "suicide"). !
And this URL provides an excellent overview of Khazar history and their
conversion: http://www.ummah.net/unity/race/khazars.html. Also about the
"religious" claim to Israel, any truely religious Jew will tell you that he is
against Israel, since they believe it should be gained by a miracle, and not by
any military means whatsoever. This is a Jewish anti-Zionist website that i
think you'll find very helpful: www.JewsNotZionists.org.
I hope I made a significant contribution to your website. Thank you for your
time.
Thanks for the links and info. Actually, most of them have already been on this
site, almost since inception. Although I consider the Khazar case as secondary
and somewhat irrelevant, I included it under miscellaneous section only as
"interesting info".
19 Jan 2001
Excellent site. I have some articles which may be of interest to you.
One article is a speech by Benjamin Freedman, himself a Jew, from 1961. In the
speech Freedman talks about how Germany gave refuge to Jews that were involved
in the failed revolution in Russia in 1905.
For their compassion the Germans were betrayed during WW1 by imperial zion.
Having lost WW1 within two years Britain was approached by Zionists with an
offer to bring America into the war in return for the British promise of
Palestine for the Jews. Hence the Balfour Declaration.
Freedman also mentions the World Jewish Congress declaring a worldwide economic
war against Germany in 1933 and talks about the Kol Nidre pray
that Jews make on the Day of Atonement.
In that prayer, Jews enter into an agreement with God Almighty that any oath,
vow, or pledge that they may make during the next twelve months shall be null
and void. The oath shall not be an oath the vow shall not be a vow the pledge
shall not be a pledge. They shall have no force or effect. And further, the
Talmud teaches that whenever you take an oath, vow, or pledge, you are to
remember the Kol Nidre prayer that you recited on the Day of Atonement, and you
are exempted from fulfilling them.
So much for any chance of a lasting peace agreement in Palestine.
Can I interest you.
Nabil T***
15 Jan 2001
Usual fucking left-wing pro-Palestinian drivel! A Christian are you
- forget the crusades? And maybe that's why you are linked to hezbollah? Your
crapulous site ought to be shut down! Long live the Jewish state!!
>Usual fucking left-wing pro-Palestinian drivel!
Does "left-wing" and "pro-Palestinian" equal "false"?
>A Christian are you - forget the crusades?
Didn't realize that being Christian, and cheering the Crusades as one and
the same! Just like, perhaps, being Jewish and supporting the "Jewish"
State being totally different. If you call yourself Jewish does not mean
you should cheer crimes committed by some who call themselves "Jews".
>And maybe that's why you are linked to hezbollah?
Linked to Hizbollah? How so, please enlighten? Just because *A* Hizbollah
site decided to put a link to my site, does not mean that I am "linked to
Hizbollah", if that's what you're talking about.
>Your crapulous site ought to be shut down!
Why? Because you're not equipped to handle, or be reminded of the horrible
truth you support?
>Long live the Jewish state!!
Long live human rights, which are in contradiction with Israel being a "Jewish
state". Until all Israel's citizens are equal, and until the refugees forced
out by Israel are allowed to return, and until Israel's occupation and
humiliation of the Palestinians stops, there won't be peace in the middle East.
Sam
13 Jan 2001
sam
i wrote in support of your website in july and i was just reading the other
feedback and it's a good part of a good site - i noticed however that in a throw
away line you say that "Jews are rich" in response to some schmock saying that
Jews pay more taxes in the US than anyone else. It is true as you say, that
Jews are the richest minority but to say "Jews are rich" is too much of a
generalisation.
still wishing you well
mark
I agree with your observation, and as a result, corrected my generalization. --Sam
7 Jan 2001
Very informative page! It seems that it took you very long to have it online,
but why dont you have your own domain name, instead of hosting it in geocities?
I would like to invite you to my homepage at the following URL:
http://aldiar.com/israel
Well done....I wish Arabs can take advantage of the Internet rather than
spending thier time on chatting!!
Thank you for your support. I prefer the anonymity of geocities. --Sam
4 Jan 2001
Sam,
the palestinians have been wronged beyond belief. isrealis MUST give the
palestians complete control of the west bank and the gaza strip, MUST partition
jeruselam and give the palestian state soveriegnty over muslim holy sites, and
MUST allow the lawful right of return for palestinian refugees driven from their
land to retain even a shred of their national dignity. i also think that after
the isrealis finally do, and they will, settle with the palestinians that they
will face an internal civil war brought about by the devided nature of their
society.
however, i do not know that the current violence is the correct way to force the
uncooperative isrealis into a settlement. for, if violince is to be used then
the isrealis must be forced to incur higher casualty rates that would
unacceptable currently the isreali public, government and military can sustain
the kinds of casualties the isrealis have been receiving. there must be a higher
loss of isreali life OR peaceful protest must be used, similar to that of the
american civil rights movement in the 1950s-60s and the indian nationalist
movement in the 1930s-40s. peaceful protests could include the blocking of roads
by people lying down and other interruptions of infrastructure, the benefits of
this would be to create positive publicity for the justified palestinain case.
in my mind the anti-isreali movement must be a peaceful protest or an all out
war to be successful. what do you think?
a mixed race, aetheist, american citizen
Thank you for your supportive message.
You pose a very good question. My general thoughts on it follow.
The idea of a peaceful Palestinian resistance to occupation did occurr to me.
It will sure be nice for more world support. But the situation here is not the
same, as say, the Gandhi in India against the British case, and is certainly
remote from resembling the civil rights movement case.
What the Palestinians endure is not mere occupation and repression, in the
traditional sense. It is, in my opinion, ethnic cleansing/"Judaization" in
slow motion (following the two major ethnic cleansing campaigns of 1948 and
1967). Israeli leaders, such as "peace man" Rabin were frank enough to admit
such -- creating miserable enough conditions that will evoke a "voluntary"
Palestinians departure. This occupation has, furthermore, interferred with
every level of Palestinian life.
Unlike other, "traditional" occupation and settler colonialism, Israel's over
Palestine included/s slow and gradual eradication of the locals. Every
Palestinian has experienced/s the occupation in more than one way, on all
civil life levels, and on a daily basis, (eg, the repeated humiliation at
roadblocks, long bureaucratic process for house-building permits which are
usually denied, etc). The occupation reached the personal level of every
Palestinian household, a manifestation of Israel's slow encroachment on their
land, property and livelihood in general.
The humiliation, torture, imprisonment without trial, exploitation of
labor, endless suffocating curfews, bombardment of towns, assassinations,
being shot with the purpose of maiming, breaking of children's legs and
arms' bones, dragged out of their homes and homes demolished in front
of the eyes of the owners, endless confiscation of land, deprivation of
water, urinating in/destruction of Palestinian cisterns which the latter
placed on their roofs to collect much needed water, the denial of permits
to built houses forever, the denial of well-digging permits, (while settlers
nearby fill their pools and water their gardens), the massacres by "crazy"
settlers of Palestinians, the pregnant women who died in ambulances waiting
for long hours at Israeli check points, the cutting down of olive trees --the
livelihood of many Palestinians-- by Israel, etc.
Compounding the Palestinian agony is that Israel does all the above while
wearing a "human right" facade, projecting an image of a "light unto nations",
a nation working hard to fight "terrorism", a nation that's being vicitimized
anew, by local savages. All these are images that are largely believed by the
people of the world, who rely on TV and western/US press for their news sources.
Most of the settlers (I am talking about all Israeli Jews) here, unlike
traditional colonialism -- eg British over India -- do not have a country
to go back to; they burned the bridges behind them --almost-- and placed
themselves in the face of the locals, competing for the same land. They
didn't simply come to devour the resources of the land and enslave the
population, as in traditional colonialism. They came to LIVE there, in
"THEIR" land!
But, there were also, the usual similarities with traditional colonialism,
however. The settlers were way more advanced than the locals, and well versed
in PR and in understanding the importance of, and the ability to shape world
public opinion, unlike the locals. So, the settlers' slow cleansing of the
locals was beamed to the world as "holocaust survivors resisting further
destruction," a benevolent resistance to terrorism of the crude and backward
locals, an example for the world to follow of purity of arms, of making the
desert bloom, and more of the plain'ol "civilizing mission" jargon of
traditional colonialism.
Under such conditions of constant pressure of humiliation and dispossession, that
is slowly building up, the Palestinians are reacting like any normal being would
in similar situation. They are exploding in response to pressure that has built
up beyond human limitations.
HOWEVER, that's not to say that the peaceful resistance avenue has not been explored
by the Palestinians. It has actually been going on for ages, but we just don't hear
about it; it simply doesn't exist in western mainstream thinking. In addition, the
Israelis can suppress it quite easily noting the eye-aversion trait of western media,
and the Israelis' understanding of its loopholes.
An indicident that comes to my mind is when Palestinian prisonners once refused to
eat in the hope that their suffering, and possible death, would bring attention to
their situation. Then, the Israeli authorities reacted by shoving feeding tubes down
their throats. One of the prisonners died when the tube when down his breathing pipe.
Recently, a peace activist, Thabet Thabet, recognized both by Israeli and Palestinian
groups as such, was assassinated by Israel. When peaceful resistance is completely
ignored/goes unnoticed by the world it in turn drives the Palestinians into more
frustration, and builds the pressure further, leading to the natural explosion you see
today. What actually surprises me is not the "violent" resistance to occupation you
see today --ie, largely, teenagers throwing rocks-- but rather the rarity of violent
acts over the past three decades noting the level of repression and injustice the
Palestinians have lived under.
One more thing, is that Israel has showed more than once that it will only address
a situation when faced by force and an enemie that is willing to sacrifice his life
for his cause. Examples are the Hizbollah in Lebanon amd the first uprising, the
first causing an Israeli withdrawal and the second, recognition of and negotiation
with the Palestinians.
Thus, what's happening today is very spontaneous -- a collective reaction of a
community that has nothing left to lose, trying to shake off the burden of constant
humiliation and dispossession. By no means did Palestinian leaders sit together in
dark rooms and planned the current uprising. If anything, the leaders were caught by
surprise. When a monkey is sitting on your back for so many years and you've tried
everything to get it off, then pressure builds up in you. And one day you explode.
The "turn the other cheek" saying applies, in my opinion, to limited number of slaps.
Even to a large number of slaps, but not infinite -- especially when it is one's
loved ones, not oneself, that's receiving the slaps. Neither I nor you can say
for sure that we'll react differently from the Palestinians in response to what
they've been through, can we?
Thanks for raising an important issue.
Sam
3 Jan 2001
Boring...Boring...yawn...yawn...
3 Jan 2001
Gosh you are an idiot.
27 Dec 2000
Hello Sam,
I was wondering since you are so clued up on this "problem", when you think the
United Nations War Crimes Tribunal will be able to do its work in Israel. I
Think sooner the United Nations are sent to the region the sooner people will
see past Israels Media Manipulation. However with the United States being able
to veto any proposition in the U.N, will the United Nations ever be able to goto
Israel and punish the Racist and eViL Zionists for thier crimes against
Humanity.
Man you would think these people would have some compassion after how they were
treated in ww2, but they turn around and do what the Nazi's did. HOW THE HELL
CAN UNITED NATIONS DO NOTHIN
Thanx
Prince Of Persia
Hezbollah Cyber Division
As Chomsky explained: one MUST understand that the world is ruled by force, not by
law, reason or any other nice criterion. UN is an instrument in US's hands. --Sam
26 Dec 2000
Left Wing Teddy Katz admits, he made up massacre allegation against the
Palestinians in 48.
Historian Teddy Katz to apologize for '1948 massacre' account
By Assaf Bergerfreund, Ha'aretz Correspondent
[.... article deleted]
See the following links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda/message/8012
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda/message/7747
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda/message/7692
Sam
25 Dec 2000
first of all i would like to commend you on your wonderful website..i been
trying to track down some of these articles for a long time now. Although i am
thrilled to see articles by such distinguished commentatros like Noam Chomsky,
Edward Herman, Eqbal Ahmad and Naseer Arouri i was somewhat disturbed by the
listing of articles by Patrick Buchanan and the racist comments in them.
Although he might make a passing criticism of Israel..the fact still remains
that he is an apologist for the establishment and a very racist commentator
especially in matters relating to China and Chinese Americans. His addition can
only harm the website.
In solidarity
Nikhil
Thank you Nikhil for your words of compliment.
I will check the Buchanan articles posted for racism. If there are any that once
slipped my eyes, I will remove them. Otherwise, I regret that I will have to keep
them, despite Buchanan's other views, not listed here, which might be racist. True
he's often an apologist for the establishment, but he also daringly and rightly
criticizes US foreign policy, especially in the Middle East. Coming from a main-
stream guy like Buchanan, this would carry a lot of weight in the eyes of many
visitors to this site who hold his views high.
Regards,
Sam
25 Dec 2000
Dear Sam
Thank you for your helpful research. I do have one question. I keep reading
and hearing about the Palestinian "refugee" problem. Evidently Israel either
won't or tries to harass those refugees who seek to return to "their" land. Can
you help me? What exactly is the problem? Does Israel refuse to allow refugees
back? Is the problem that Israel allows Palestinians to return but with no
reparations in the picture? If Israel prevents Palestinians from returning to
the land it seems to be with such hypocrisy. For why should the Jews be allowed
(and encouraged with US tax dollars) to return to the land but the Palestinians
are not? After all in 1900 there were 250,000 Palestinians in the Holy Land and
no more than 10,000 Jews.
Thank you.
DM
The Palestinian refugee question is at the HEART of the entire Middle East conflict.
Israel terrorized over a million Palestinian Arabs in 1948 and 1967 to flee,
intentionally, via massacres and psychological warfare to create land and space
for a Jewish majority needed to establish a "Jewish state". It fits accurately
the definition of "ethnic cleansing".
Israel immediately, possessed the refugees' houses and lands, or when deemed unfit for
"Jewish" habitation, were destroyed, like the 400+ Palestinian villages razed to the
ground. Palestinian refugees, not including internal refugees in Israel, number today
over 4 million, with their decendents. Since day one, they have been denied the right to
return and/or compensation by Israel, mostly because they will upset the Zionist dream of
a Jewish majority, or the "Jewish character" of Israel. The hypocrisy is that in the past
decade, Israel allowed over 1 million Russian "Jews" to immigrate to Israel, although some
of these --30% at least-- were not Jews as reported by the Israeli press! So, Israel would
allow "anyone" to "return", it seems, so long (s)he is not Palestinian, or so long (s)he be
counted as a "Jew" to help maintian the "Jewish" majority, and hence "Jewish" control of
the land.
Best
Sam
24 Dec 2000
I just wanted to express my great appreciation of this site. Its wonderful! I
am Palestinian, and the great wealth of resources that you have here help me be
more knowledgeable about what I always instinctively knew and to back it up with
science, when discussing with, and explaining to, others Thank you also for
putting light on certain 'mysteries' regarding the Palestinian issue. Happy Eid
and Merry Christmas.
Kindest regards
nisrine
My pleasure. --Sam
23 Dec 2000
Dear Sam,
Thank you for your efforts to present a fair, acurate version of the
present state of affairs. More power to you
Rod S**
Thank you Sir for your support. --Sam
10 Dec 2000
Hello Sam,
I'm neither Jewish nor Arabic. Keep up the fantastic work you are doing. The
maps are especially valuable because without them, it becomes almost impossible
to explain what is happening to people who have difficulty locating even Gaza
and West Bank (in terms of the Oslo Apartheid). I know that I did not really get
it until I saw maps that a prof. had brought to my university. Again, what you
are doing is FANTASTIC. Don't let the Zionists discourage you! You are not
racist, they are!
Friend of Palestine
Thank you dear sir for your input and encouragement.
10 Dec 2000
Sam
Could possibly e-mail me as complete as possible a copy of Albert Einstein's
commentary on Zionism and Israel, including source(s) (including copy of
editorial in NYT in 1948). Having a hard time accessing it.
Sam
sbadaro@
Regretfully, I don't send mail out to visitors. I don't remember where I
got the quote you mention. Perhaps from Lilienthal's book, if that's what
you were looking for.
Sam
9 Dec 2000
It's because of people like you that there needs to be a large
pro-Israel lobby. If the Jews weren't so involved in PR, they could spend their
time finding cures for diseases. Your site proves nothing except that there are
vehement anti-Israel people and that Israel is a very busy country because it's
always being attacked (despite what your links allege).
>It's because of people like you that there needs to be a large pro-Israel lobby.
That's like saying because of medication there needs to be a desease! It goes
to show the extent of irrationality today in support for Israel's policies.
Truth is, of course, that people like me were created long after, and in
response to, the creation of Israeli propaganda industry and lobby organizations
such as AIPAC and ADL, that have became a front to cover Israel's crimes, and
even to silence criticism of its policies of aggression and expansion. If these
organizations did not support Israel blindly, there wouldn't be a need for my site.
The "anti-Israel" content of this site represent actions committed by Israel
-- not simply "anti-Israel content". One should not be described merely as
"anti-Nazi" when one tells the truth about the crimes Nazis committed. I am
here exposing Israel's colossal skeleton closet, of Palestinian victimization.
The world needs to see that to stand up to Israel. The funny thing is that
instead of supporters of Israel waking up to their brain-washedness, they
accuse me of "anti-Israelism", even "anti-Semitism". Instead of thinking about
the enormous crimes by Israel I listed as the SOURCE of conflict in the Middle
East, they try to shut the messenger up. I like to see my actions described
not merely as anti-Israeli POLICY (not "anti-Israel"); but more "pro-Palestinian
human rights," rights that were robbed by Israel, which I am here exposing.
Sam
8 Dec 2000
I represent a student organization in Montreal, SPHR (Solidarity for Palestinian
Human Rights). We would like to commend you on your website which must have
required much work and dedication. Our organization works to raise awareness of
crimes committed against the Palestinians, of their history and of their
culture. It includes members from three universities, Concordia, McGill and UQAM
and continues to grow. Our members come from a diverse range of nationalities
and religions, all supporting the Palestinian cause. We would like to
incorporate your website, along with special thanks and a link, in our website.
We would greatly appreciate this. Our URL is http://www.sphr.org/
If you would like to contact us ....
Chadi M.
SPHR
7 Dec 2000
Now we know it. What are we going to do about it?
Our people are all either suppressed or deep asleep in...honey.
Knowing the facts is good,but not good enough. The west is under the siege of
the Jewish control. People like Garoudi in France, the Country of Freedom, who
told the facts about Jews, is not allowed by the French Supreme Court to write a
simople secntence in this subject,not even on the wall of a western toilet.
Arabs do not know how to put forward their case, or do they???? They only obey,
because they are chevalores. Viva Western Democracy. Viva Freedom of Speech.
>Now we know it. What are we going to do about it?
Actually, No, the majority does NOT know "it"; and that's the problem. I would
rather use the designation "pro-Israel" control, instead of "Jewish" control.
I am assuming that's what you meant! Because, after all, I would love it a lot
if a Jew who's pro-fairness and justice against Israeli policies, is in control,
wouldn't you?
The silencing of Garaudy is shameful. Everyone should have the right to say
what they want -- however absurd, as in the case of some of what Garaudy wrote.
The abuse of the Holocaust by pro-Israel people for political ends, does not
change the fact that millions of Jews were killed by Hitler, deliberately,
during WWII.
If, however, you hate all Jews and see them as conspiratorial, then please do not
comeback here -- not until you have awakened to the fact that Jews, like non-Jews,
have the good and the bad.
Sam
7 Dec 2000
Thank you for your comprehensive and honest treatment of disgusting
Israeli problem. I would like to suggest a strategem. Compose a series of
concise hard-hitting letters (100-200 words) each covering a particular aspect
of the issue. Send these to activists around the country with a request that
the activists publish the letters in the local newspaper as "letters to the
editor". Also, these same activists could send the letters to their friends as
e-mail chain letters (each recipient sends a copy to five friends,etc.). Such a
program, if successful, would create enough public pressure to force Congress to
act. If you can't undertake such a program because of your tax status please
send me the name of several inti-Zionist organizations. I will contact them
with the same idea.
Thank you for your support. Good suggestion. There's already many pro-human
rights activists around the world doing what you suggested. --Sam
5 Dec 2000
needless to say,we the arabs and muslims are to bear the shameless
end results of the continued abuse of our rights by isreal and its puppet the
usa.no one but us arabs and muslims should be blamed for the situation we are in
and for the genocide which the palestinians are going through.
While I would agree that the Arab (Muslim?) states, in their indifference, inaction
and division, have made easy the exesses committed by Israel, I would not agree to the
part that "no one but us" is to blame. The exesses are still committed by criminal
Israel, and hence, it is certainly the first to blame.
Sam
3 Dec 2000
thank you very much for an awesome and extremely informative site.
My pleasure. --Sam
3 Dec 2000
the people of iraq may have suffered.....but there leader has caused it!!
I disagree with your use of the word "caused" (not to mention the word "may"!).
Saddam's actions certainly didn't help, but "causing" the deaths is another matter.
Hint questions: Do you deny that the US has helped majorly in putting and enforcing
the sanctions? Do you deny that the removal of sancitons by the US would end the killing;
in other words, that THE US _HAS_ A WAY TO END THE NEEDLESS CIVILIAN DEATHS? Didn't
Iraq prosper under Saddam BEFORE there were sanctions? Why should the ECONOMIC
PART of sanctions, devastating the population, be maintained, if the intent is
not to harm civilians? Furthermore, if the intent is not to harm civilians,
why was the civilians infratructure of Iraq deliberately bombed in 1991? Or why
has the US altered, with the passage of time, the criterion for the removal of
sanctions, making it impossible for Saddam to comply?
Saddam's actions elicited US leaders' wrath, (for challenging their dominance of
the region) which in turn CAUSED the devastation of Iraq by the US. Do you deny
that? So: By omitting the "US leaders" factor in your statement above, you
attempt -- prehaps not intentionally, but as a result of media indoctrination--
to put ALL the blame on Saddam. No one I know would deny that Saddam is a killer, and
that he chose to let his people die at the hands of US-enforced sanctions, rather than
bow down to US diktat, lose his power (and his head). But, THE US KNOWS THAT, and
despite it, _CHOSE_ to continue the deadly sanctions! And, the US component is THERE,
especially since the US leaders _CAN_ stop the needless death -- if they want to!
What do you expect Saddam to do when the US imposes deadly sanctions on Iraqi civilians?
To just come out and say "I am sorry"? Had he been given an avenue to step down without
getting his head chopped off --like what happened to Idi Amin and others dictators-- then
he might have opted for that. Right now, the only option left for him by US leaders is
commit suicide, or step down and get killed. Are you surprised he chose "none of the
above"?
You have to learn to think independently from mainstream frameset -- leaders' rhetoric
that is echoed unchallenged by the media. It is not unpatriotic to condemn certain
action by one's own government, especially when these actions produce a holocaust on
another people.
Good Luck.
Sam
3 Dec 2000
Dear Sam:
I like to commend you on your effort in putting together such a great web site
that is rich of resources. The structure is well organized with a tremendous
wealth of information.
I will definitly recommend this page to my friends who are interested in the
politics of the Middle East.
Joe Abu***
Atlanta-GA
Thank you for your kind words of compliment. --Sam
2 Dec 2000
Exellent resource. This is a great source of invaluable facts and figures. Thank
you for the enormous amount of work thats obviously been put into compiling all
this information.
- editor
CafeArabica.com
Thank you for your nice compliment. --Sam
1 Dec 2000
Dear Sam, This is an excellent site!! Fantastic job!! I will pass it on to ALL
my friends who I'm sure are going to be just as delighted as I am to have this
site as a permanent reference tool.Only 33,000+ people have seen this? No,
no....wait and see, this site is going to go around the world millions of times
shortly....
I would like to mention one minor point....in the Author's Index as I was trying
to access Lilienthal's articles which I'm dying to read but I discovered that I
could not and was directed elsewhere instead.....and then I discovered that just
below the Lilienthal entry there are many,many other articles that are embedded
in the site but which are not labelled and do not appear to be there...I found
that I was clicking on blank white spaces and being lead to articles...it's a
shame that it appears there is a wealth of info there that is not evident to the
naked eye....I hope that you can correct this as I'd love to see what is there
so that I can choose what to click on rather than just click blindly and read
whatever comes up.Please, can you check the Lilienthal entry and then also
everything that comes under it straight down the right-hand side of that page?
Thanks very much.
And thank you again for providing such an informative and absorbing site!!
I would prefer that you do not publish my comments re your Author Index as
everything else is so wonderful on the site that this is just a trivial
aside...and quite negligible if I were'nt so anxious to read every single item
that you have published in the Author's Index..especially Lilienthal's works..
PS You have no articles by Amos Oz? Perhaps there are but I have overlooked
them...I'll keep looking...
Thanks again....
Genie T.
Alexandria, Virginia
Thank you for your nice input! I am, however, unable to reproduce the problem
you mention. I do have one article by Amos Oz. You may suggest others, if
you want. But the many I have seen were not too different from Israel's main-stream
propaganda.
Sam
29 Nov 2000
Dear Sam,
In my quest to collect articles and documents covering the Arab-Israeli struggle
for our web site, I have seen numerous web sites with valuable and interesting
collection. However, this one is really the most comprehensive archive I have
ever seen so far covering the issue. The Author Index is a fantastic reference
that must be bookmarked by every one who seeks knowledge and understanding.
Please, keep it up. Such a professional effort is so dearly needed in this
struggle. Thank you for the enormous amount of time you have so far invested in
this little library.
You have surely filled my heart with pride and hope !
Khalil El-Sa***
(I was referred by a friend. I'm adding a link to this wonderful site on our web
site)
Thank you for your kind support, Khalil. --Sam
28 Nov 2000
Mashallah.
May God bless you for your good work. This site is brilliantly informative and I
am telling everyone about it.
Bilal P.
Thank you Bilal. --Sam
27 Nov 2000
Dear Sam
I very happy to have found your web site. It is a great source of information,
and I'm recomending it to any one that wants to know the truth about the
Palestinia and Jewish claim to Palestine.
So if any one asks me about the Palestinian, the answer would be your site.
Keep up the good work and may God bless you.
Thank you sir/madam. --Sam
26 Nov 2000
Sam
Amazing page. The sources are credible and respected, and I will be using your
page often, as a Human Rights activist and plain old seeker of justice. Well
done, thank you. Please, please continue. I believe pages like yours prove what
great benefit the Internet can provide. Truth, information and knowledge will
be the weapons in the war against injustice.
Minnesota girl
Thank you, Minnesota girl. --Sam
25 Nov 2000
Sam,
The level of passion your page arouses from both sides of the Arab/Jew divide is
remarkable. Obviously, it taps into visceral emotions for both parties. As a
Muslim from South Asia, I have just belatedly begun delving on my own into the
Paletinian-Zionist conflict, which had often seemed remote and hopelessly
complicated, but which I felt it was my duty to familiarize myself with, when
the new round of conflict started a few weeks ago.
My starting point has been Benny Morris's 1999 book "Righteous Victims : A
History of the Arab-Zionist Conflict". Although Morris himself is apparently
reviled by large sections of the Zionist entity for his 'demythologizing' of
romantic cliches regarding the creation of Israel, one thing apart from all else
stands out in my mind from reading his account, which on the whole strikes me as
reasonably balanced and impartial.
That point is this : With the kind of leadership the Arabs have been cursed
with, it is unlikely that Israel would NOT have been created. From the early
years, when the Arab landowning classes sold land to the Jews on the one hand,
while hypocritically denouncing the Zionist enterprise on the other hand, to the
feckless ineptitude of the Palestinian leadership during the crucial decades up
to 1948, when the Arabs probably needed strong committed visionary leadership
more than anything else, to the War of 1948 itself, when countries like Jordan
and Egypt were more interested in land-grabs for themselves than anything else -
this catalogue of selfishness, shortsightedness, disunity, infighting, and
missed opportunities on the part of the Arabs is enough to make one scream in
frustration.
Unfortunately, strong, committed, focussed, visionary, even ruthless, leadership
was exactly what the Israelis had, in the shape of Ben-Gurion et al, so much so
that Ben-Gurion has even been accused of putting the Zionist state above all
other interests, including the ongoing Holocaust in Europe!
My argument is this, though I run the risk of being branded an apologist for
force, which I would like to assure you I am not. Without the political savvy
and the military muscle to properly look after their own interests, the Arabs
were always at risk of being brutalized by a people as chillingly united,
dedicated and unscrupulous as the Zionists. The term is Realpolitik, and the
Arabs let themselves down quite hopelessly in that respect. They contributed in
large measure to their own downfall.
I understand that your site addresses the question of Israeli injustice, while I
am worried more by the different issue of weak Arab leadership, and the larger
weaknesses of Arab society which continue to this day. While the Palestinians
themselves fight on to redress historical wrongs, and while fissures appear in
Israel itself regarding the nature of its society and the morality of its
creation, it is ALL-IMPORTANT that Arabs everywhere work to modernize and
strengthen Arab society, and above all to UNIFY themselves against Western
aggression and exploitation.
There is no greater shame in this world when oil-rich sheikhs prance around in
stretch limousines and million-dollar yachts, burning dollars with abandon in
the casinos of Las Vegas and the Riviera and in the racetracks of the world,
when their fellow-Arabs are the victims of oppression and injustice. If Arabs
worked on this one thing alone, a just solution to the conflict would be far
more achievable.
Thanks for your feedback. I would definitely agree that the Arab world has
been plagued by terrible leaders, whose decisions have not helped the
Palestinian problem to get resolved -- to say the least. On many occasions,
they made the problem worse, with their negative and threatening rhetoric,
inexperience in western morals and PR, inner fighting, selfishness, subservience
to the West, denial of freedom of expressions to the people they rule, not to
mention robbing the people's resources to buy villas and luxury cars. With this
in mind, is it a wonder they have failed in stopping Zionism from expanding and
sucking out Palestinian resources and livelihood? Furthermore, Arab leaders'
incompetence on the world front, coupled with unwise policies, has been capitalized
on by the Zionists to further dispossess the Palestinians of their rights and
lands. That's why the Zionist, while claiming otherwise, prefer to have
dictatorships around them, which help keep the Arab public subdued, and their
countries and armies inefficient.
The corruption of Arab leadership would make an excellent subject for a
website. There are many out there about that.
Best
Sam
25 Nov 2000
Yours is one of the best anti-Zionism sites I've come across. As an American I
am sickened by the slavish pro-Israel sycophancy in the U.S. government and
media. I probably wouldn't care about Israeli massacres of Palestinians, except
that they're carried out with American bullets shot from American guns and
American bombs dropped from American planes. Thus, I feel responsible. Would
that The men in our Government would see fit to abide by sensible, armed
neutrality espoused by our founding fathers, and cut off all foriegn aid,
including and especially that to Israel.
It never ceases to amaze (and disgust) me the lengths to which the average
American will go to rationalize murder, torture, and disposession when the
victims are Arab and the victimizers are Israeli.
I see on your feedback page that they've launched the usual defamatory
accusations of "anti-Semitism". Don't let them get away with that. Merriam
Webster's online dictionary defines "Semite" as "a member of any of a number of
peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians,
Hebrews, and Arabs" or "a descendant of these peoples". Since you're an Arab,
and Arabs are semites, It's technically impossible for you to be an anti-Semite.
Keep up the good work and best of luck with your site.
Thank you friend. When I hear the term "anti-Semitism", I usually avoid semantics,
and respond based on its "widely accepted" meaning -- namely, anti-Jewish. --Sam
24 Nov 2000
Your web site locks me up on the miscellaneous page. I am unable to
print that out. I encounter a run-time bug error.
Probably, a geocities bug that I can't fix. Try again later. Best. --Sam
24 Nov 2000
If you EVER wanted or thought of peace with ISRAEL, why does your
logo on this site show your true intent - no State of Israel. Only a
"palestine" where ISRAEL IS, AND WILL BE FOREVER.
Didn't realize I had a logo! Where exactly did you see one -- let alone
one that indicate "no State of Israel"? If you are talking about the "Right
of Return" with a map of all of historic Palestine, then, first, that is
not my logo. Second, the map indicates where the Palestinian refugees
should be able to return to, should peace and justice take place. Afterall,
that's where the Palestinian refugees used to live 52 years ago, before being
terrorized out, expelled and massacred by Israel, their houses demolished, or
expropriated for "Jewish" use.
If, on the other hand, you are talking about using the colors of the Palestinian
flag on the main page, then that's actually just a way to show solidarity with
the victims, but not adopting it as a "logo". Furhermore, displaying the colors
of the Palestinian flag does not indicate "no State of Israel". On the other
hand, forbidding even the display of its colors, as Israel did during the first
Intifada, is indicative of ISRAEL's true intent - "no state of Palestine".
Sam
24 Nov 2000
Arab States get more aid from the U.S. than Israel.
Jews in the U.S. pay more in taxes (which is what is ultimately used for aid
than arabs in the U.S.)
Who really got the better return on equity from the U.S.? Arab countries.
Who votes WITH the U.S. on almost every matter in the U.N. and supports the
United States in almost every way possible? Israel
Whose terrorists bomb U.S. ships and aircraft? Arabs
Who SHOULD get NO aid from the U.S. - Arab countries - except Egypt.
>Arab States get more aid from the U.S. than Israel.
False! Actually, the word "False" is an understatement. Aid to Israel in
1996 was about sixfold the aid to the entire continent of Africa (aside from
Egypt), where many Arab countries lie. US gives Egypt aid because Egypt
signed a treaty with Israel and entered US clients sphere, not to mention
gave Israel a carte blanche to aggression, after neutralizing the largest
Arab country bordering Israel. The combined US aid to Egypt and Israel
is about 40% if not more of US's *TOTAL* aid to the ENTIRE WORLD! For the
past 25 years, Israel received an average of $10,000,000 PER DAY from US.
>Jews in the U.S. pay more in taxes
More than who? US Jews constitute 2% of the population. True they are
the richest minority, but to claim they pay more than the remaining 98%
is absurd, if that was your implication. If the implication was that Jews
pay more than their ratio in the population, then true. That's because they're
--on average-- rich, way more so than the population average. But still,
the overall tax amount paid by these, does not, not even remotely, approach
that paid by the overall population.
In addition, many Jews donate to Israel, TAX FREE via special organizations,
such as UJA. In other words, uncle Sam and all US taxpayers, pick-up maybe
about a third of US Jews' tax-deductible donations to Israel. These amount
close to one BILLION some years. Similar numbers come from fundamentalist
Christians supporters of Israel.
>Who votes WITH the U.S. on almost every matter in the U.N. and supports the
>United States in almost every way possible? Israel
What you meant to say, probably, is who ALONE votes with Israel in support of
the latter's belligerence and violation of international laws? Answer: US.
US is a pretty big country and can manipulate the UN and international law
as it pleases, almost. It certainly does not need Israel's vote on any issue.
>Whose terrorists bomb U.S. ships and aircraft? Arabs
And who made these people reach such a desperate state that they chose
death and terrorism?
Sam
23 Nov 2000
Dear Sam-
Thanks for this web site. In today's world the information is so misleading that
being an arab is considered as crime. I personally do not hold any bad feelings
toward jews, but I certainly wish something happens to make Isreal less
arrogant. I hope that Arab rulers be more united, and Arabs abroad help each
other on a daily bases, do business with arabs first, hire arabs first, all that
can be done to support arabs must be done. Arab countries should reduce oil
production to jack up the prices and push the world to accept the rights of
arabs to be in their lands, what arabs need is a long term plan whose objectives
are not to destruct a particular party or faith but to ensure that arab people
be respected and never aggressed, the way the media and Israel are doing.
Thanks again for the webpage, I know that you are an Arab-Americain, are you
Muslim or Christian?
C.
As I say on the front page of this site, I see myself a Christian Arab-
American. But above all, however, I am a human being with compassion for
victims of oppression. I added that important note on the front page. --Sam
22 Nov 2000
fuck u!
[From Israel]
Quite original. --Sam
21 Nov 2000
Great job sam! We live in a world filled with contrived truths
manipulated for the benefit of the rich and powerful amongst us. It is nice to
see someone care enough to speak out for those that few care about. The
Palestinians are humans like us and deserve to live in peace without harassment
and fear. Eventually, justice catches up with those commiting the crime as
horrific as what we see in Palestine. God bless your good work!
Thank you friend. --Sam
20 Nov 2000
fuck you all
bnei-zonot
mizdaynim batahat
busters
motherfuckers
[From Israel.]
20 Nov 2000
Great Site Sam - Just look at the responses of "pro-israeli" responders and one
can see the hatred inside - or is it because THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !!!!
I hope you have back-up copies of your site - as you know the israelis had
launched internet terrorism shutting down Hezbullah and Hamas sites amongst
others.
Continue on in the search of truth good friend !! Peace comes only to those
with real love in their hearts - and Israel does not have it.
Thank you for your support, fellow. --Sam
19 Nov 2000
[This is the second and last feedback allowed you.]
Hello, this is regarding:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/israel_india_kutty_092000.html
(a docuemnt you are linked to, about Israeli - Indian relations)
I would just like to point out just how much you proved my point for me on
there.
I already admit to a SLIGHT extent of what you have claimed about Israels birth
(but
nowhere near as much as you claim, and i've seen much evidance sent, which you
answered with
'political wording' that made you sound right, but you never proved it wrong)
but the fact is
that document HIGHLIGHTS Arab threat as in the document there were claims that
(summed up)
'If they wanted to, the arab world can make India suffer dearly, economically,
and perhaps even militerally, if they keep supporting Israel.'
and then you post about how israel is making sure India (and others) are
defenatly pro-israel. Heh, which bit suprised you more i would liek to know,
Israels 'make sure they're on our side', or Arab threats to yet ANOTHER state?
please Answer
>I already admit to a SLIGHT extent of what you have claimed about Israels birth
>(but nowhere near as much as you claim, and i've seen much evidance sent, which
>you answered with 'political wording' that made you sound right, but you never
>proved it wrong)
Please be specific about "evidence sent" and my "poitical wording" -- that is, if
you desire an answer.
>'If they wanted to, the arab world can make India suffer dearly, economically,
>and perhaps even militerally, if they keep supporting Israel.'
The keyword here is "IF". Rhetoric aside, Arab leaders have become indifferent
about the Palestinian issue, and want to bail out like Egypt did. "IF" the Arab
countries want to, they could indeed make india suffer dearly, BUT at a loss to them
too -- something they don't want to sacrifice for the sake of the Palestinians.
>Heh, which bit suprised you more i would liek to know, Israels 'make sure they're
>on our side', or Arab threats to yet ANOTHER state?
Huh? Where do I claim surprise, please specify? What's wrong with Arab states
threatening another state to not do business with a criminal state, Israel, until
that state has ended its victimization of Palestinians? Just like there were
boycotts of the apartheid regime, there should be boycotts --under threats of
sanctions, if necessary-- of Israel, until Israel pursues real peace based on
justice, ends the occupation of Palestinian land and enslavement of the people,
and compensates and repatriates its long-time victims.
Sam
18 Nov 2000
Your site may speak the truth but what are you going to do? Isreal
has planes, tanks and Nuclear weapons. How will you counter this? With rocks and
pistols?
The pen is mightier than the sword. What Israel abhors most is a world that
is informed on the issue. And, informing the world is what I am here for --
armed with my pen. --Sam
16 Nov 2000
Hello "Sam"
TL here again (i wrote last on the 15th and you appriciated my direct
and (i hope) realtively exact info).. I hope you will find this
equally good...
anyway
i've got a few new things i want to write about
now, to respond to my last message, unfortunately it is not infront of
me so i'm writing off the top of my head (instead of analyzing little
bits like you do).. but basically, you keep saying "have you ever thought why"
"all we ask for is ... ".. well, thats all fine, but as the peace process
started,
the world was available to the palestinians, they had very little limits (except
Jerusalem)
yet the arab leadership.. and statistically 50% of teh palestinians joined with
Hamas ("unofficially")
and basically got Benjamin Netanyahu elected, which led to all the problems of
todays process.
As for the past, Israeli confiscation etc etc etc.. i agree, i personally want
the (majority) of settlements
DISMANTLED... but unfortunately, they are there, and as for hatred going back
for the last 50 years (as i said, i was a soldier in the territory), well i have
two points about that, one will come up a bit later.. but basically, the
majority of that generation is dead they gave the 'deed to the house' to their
now young offspring, many of whom are
STILL refugees.. I saw it on CNN.. them going "We will stay this way until we go
back to our home, the one where our grandfather lived"... c'mon! i don't like
how history was dictated.. but this
is basically they're choice, they choose to NOT reintegrate into society.. sure
i understand the economy in the west bank isn't exactly "western".. but many do
not even try...
As for the original ISRAELI action, i know you'll go further back than this, but
the FACT is that the 6 day war (in which east Jerusalem was reintegrated with
the rest) was originally against
Egypt, which was mounting it's army following a Russian -FALSE- report Israel
was going to attack, as did Syria, the result was an israeli attack, but Israel
did NOT strike Jordan or the west bank,
it's WELL DOCUMENTED that they bombarded west jerusalem which resulted in a
quick and swift Israeli responce.
I constantly question history, it's my job as a person who lives in a place
where history dictates the future.
but the fact remains, wether fair or not, that the palestinians are NOT helping
the process in any way what-so-ever.
You have made quite clear that "israelis do not consider arabs as equal"... i'm
afriad you have a VERY big bias there
I AM ISRAELI, I have MANY friends there, and arabs in general are considered
equal, but then that image is turned into ANIMALS when organizations like HAMAS
are around, and they have a lot of support
in the west bank, which in turn draws less support within israel!
I would also like to highlight the 2 facts ... I am proud to now
reveal these.
firstly, I have recently visited london. While there, i bought the paper
the "Jewish chronical", it highlighted new threatening letters sent by arabs to
the police, media and Jewish leaders, following an old-fashioned arab
flag-burining
now, upon reading this letter, my adrenaline rose, as did my patriotism, they
actually THREATENED all jews who helped Israel. Well you expect this actions
by certain muslim leaders to help change israelis opinions?
in 20 seconds of reading the letter my "pro-right" (small) side really lit up..
and yet you claim it's JEWS faults for looking as "pro-israeli".. well we were
just backed in to a corner, just like arabs did the opposite as soon as this
started
i do not see ANY WAY what-so-ever you can justify such action, infact, it should
be condemned in the biggest way possible.. as far as i've SEEN, it's arabs who
ruin the peace ideals at every corner lately.
AS for the second point, i am now PROUD to reveal a new fact!
you claimed your obsession is healthy and based on truth. Fortunately, i
consider myself
a bit on an analyst and "study of human attitude" to the point, I noticed your
excessive use of Israeli historians who "justify" your cause, well, doesn't that
just make you look as if you really want "the truth"?
Well, i'll let you decide and believe what you will, but you might wanna
RE-WRITE your site, as i have seen new evidance which CONTRADICTS your evidance
IN "Israel's birth myth" you highlight an israeli historians quote (and the
same in several other areas) that there was "huge amounts of rape which was
covered up"
the truth is the best bit, On the documentry "50 years, Israel and the Arabs"
they INTERVIEWED Arabs who admitted to being told (and going along with) a HUGE
amount of lies such as rape
I SAW people (and analysts) aswell as peoples children admitting that they,
their fathers, their history, they LIED.... yes, lied about EVERYTHING like
that, they said "they expelled us, quite a few for just for saying these things
about rape and other things"
"There was no rape" "none at all" "it was just in order to get arab support"
what have you got to say about that? people interviewed, last year, admitting to
making all this up.. several now live in the west bank, others in the USA (if i
remember correctly).. but facts are facts, there is NO evidance of rape, and now
theres proof that
infact it was a lie... what have you got to say about that?
On this note, i like to highlight the fact that, wether or not it was a
partially Israeli plan, those jews who FLED countries like Iraq, Syria, Egypt
etc etc etc, they have NO right of return to their former house, and anything
they left was confiscated for the "war effort"
yet they integrated into Israel perfectly, and stopped complaining, this is why
you rarely hear anything about them... I would like some comments here.. justify
your cause please, as i am revieweing more and more evidance that many Israelis
suffered EXACTLY the same conditions, but
"stood on their own feet" and made themselfs a new life, unlike their
palestinian counterparts who rather live in suffering and hate. I'm in NO WAY
saying these are exactly the same, nor anything of the sort, but i'm saying that
facts here have been modified AGAINST israel here, proof
has been given.. also new proof has shown that in fact not only the palestinians
lost their possetions and land etc etc, and several brought it on themselfs...
etc etc etc...
please reply, i would verty much like to see some insight from the other side..
Again, i've managed to write a very scuffy comment, sorry if this was somewhat
hard to interpret, but i believe the BASIS of my comments/questions are clear.
Thanks for reading (and answering)
--
TL
[Due to limited resources, this is the last of your feedbacks to be printed
and/or responded to. --Sam]
>as the peace process started, the world was available to the palestinians,
>they had very little limits (except Jerusalem)
I am not sure what you mean by "the world was available to the palestinians",
aside from rhetoric from Israeli and US leaders and media.
But, let see how this wonderful "peace" process dealt with the issues MOST
important to the Palestinians, namely, their freedom, independence and justice.
- Did Israel agree to withdraw to 1967 lines? NO
- Did Israel agree to dismantle illegal settlement colonies, built in the
heart of the West Bank and Gaza? NO
- Did Israel agree to a Palestinian cotrol of E. Jerusalem? NO
- Did Israel agree to allowing the Palestinians refugees the right to
return, as it does to all of world's Jews? NO.
- Did Israel agree to allow the Palestinians FULL control of the
W. Bank and Gaza water sources? NO
- Did Israel agree to allow the Palestinians to control their skies? NO
- Did Israel agree to allow the Palestinians to control their borders? NO
- Did Israel agree to allow the Palestinian state to be contiguous? NO
- When you say "except Jerusalem", are you referring to the pre-1967
known borders of the city, or the ones Israel expanded immediately after
1967 war, manyfolds INTO the west bank, after the ususal demolition of
homes and land confiscation?
- How different is what Israel offered Arafat under Oslo ("unprecedented
concessions"), from what any colonialist power offered the colonized, as
far as: have the locals (i.e. Arafat & co.) run the day-to-day lives of the
occupied, like garbage collection, etc, while continuing the occupation?
NOT MUCH.
- Has Israel removed the suffocating closure on Palestinian territories,
which devastated their economy, throughout the "peace" talks? NO
NOW, can you look a Palestinian in the eyes, with a straight face, and tell
him/her that the above "peace process" is about "peace" and that "the world
was available" to him?" I don't think so.
>statistically 50% of teh palestinians joined with Hamas ("unofficially")
Yup, if not more. And, "if I [Barak] were a Palestinian, I too would join
a terrorist group"!!! That's what Barak slipped and admitted two years
ago.
When Palestinians started to notice that the "peace" process, was actually a
change from an occupation into an apartheid, as the above points became more
and more clear, then their desparation ran high, as their economy and
unemployment, with an ever suffocating closure by Israel, deteriorated rapidly.
When Palestinians see these clearly ill-intention of Israel, since "peace"
began in 1993, e.g. accelerated settlement building, land confiscation, home
demolitions and "Jews-only" highways construction by Israel on their land, do
you blame them for joining the only organization that opposed Arafat's "peace"
process? Do you blame them when they Arafat & Co. erect villas, drive luxury
cars with VIP pass, while they, the people, sink deeper into poverty? Don't
forget, also, that Hamas supported a large civilian infrastructure of hospitals,
schools, etc.
If the Palestinians saw any good intentions on Israel's part, Hamas' followership
would've likely decreased. Not to mention that the deadliness of Hamas' attacks
worsened considerably after the Baruch Goldstein's massacre at the Ibrahimi Mosque,
noting Israel's lack of any serious action against the settlers in its wake (in
fact, after that massacre, Israel put the Palestinians under curfew, as though
they were the aggressors.) Not to mention, furthermore, that it was Israel that
strengthened Hamas before Arafat time, in order to undermine Arafat's leadership.
Did you know about that? If not, you got a lot of reading to do before you
continue your defence of Israel.
>and basically got Benjamin Netanyahu elected, which led to all the problems of
>todays process.
You are here implying that there's a "major" difference --as far as Palestinians
rights, mentioned above, are concerned-- between Netanyahu/Likud/Sharon and
Barak/Labor/Rabin. That's a myth. I guess there ARE some differences -- on
the amount of the crumbs each offered the Palestinians. If you disagree, please
mention MAJOR differences between them on the issues of refugees, settlements,
control of water resources, borders, E. Jerusalem -- the real issues of the
whole conflict that are core to Palestinian independence and freedom. How do
Barak's four "Nos", or five "redlines", differ from Sharon's?
If, for the sake of argument, one agrees that Netanyahu's created "problems of
todays process", then please define them, and define how Barak, aside from
rhetoric, has done better, or has tried to "fix" them. You are here reminded
that the number of tenders for settlements issued during Barak's time, OUTPACED
those of Netanyahu, who offered more RHETORIC about expanding settlements
than Barak did. Barak/Labor talk more about "peace" while doing the
EXACT same thing (sometimes less, sometimes more) than Likud. They talk about
freezing the settlements, but they do the opposite. Guess who initiated the
Har Homa project, for example? The likud are at least honest about it.
(Interestingly, Barak is today coutring Likud/Sharon for a unity gov.)
>.., i personally want
>the (majority) of settlements DISMANTLED... but unfortunately, they are there
Past and current Israeli leaders built settlements EXACTLY so that future
people --YOU-- will say "but unfortunately, they are there" -- i.e. facts on
the ground, to hinder the creation of a viable Palestinian state, if at all
allow one to come into existence. I have a better solution: KEEP the
settlements, BUT create a binational state in the whole of Palestine, where all
Palestinians and Israelis, irrespective of their ethnicity/religion, would get
EQUAL rights! What's wrong with that? The silence is deafening.
Regarding the justification of the six-day 1967 war:
<===================================================
= Egypt's army movements in Sinai in 1967 were largely symbolic to appease neighboring
Arab leaders. Israel knew that by the admission of its leaders. The US and
CIA knew that. Egypt was trying to get out of this trap, and it was possible
in a "brekthrough" when Nasser scheduled to send to Washington his vice president
to help end the crisis. But, Israel's forces struck before that avenue was
explored, violating a pledge they made to President Johnson.
= The following are mostly from N. Finkelstein's "Image and Reality" book,
which is STRONGLY recommended:
- In late May (67) Chief of Staff Rabin told the Israeli cabinet that Egyptian
forces in the Sinai were still in a defensive posture.
- US intelligence in May stated that there's no evidence Egypt was planning to
attack.
- US president Johnson told Eban that it was the "unanimous view [of US experts]
that there's no Egyptian intention to make an imminent attack."
- Rikhye, who toured the Egyptian front, confirms that Egyptian troops were not
poised for an offensive.
- NYT reporter James Reston observed that Egypt "does not want war and it is
certainly not ready for war".
- Mossad Chief Meir Amit stated: "Egypt was not ready for a way; and Nasser did
not want a war."
- Eban stated that he found U Thant's assurance --that Nasser promissed not to attack
Israel-- convincing, and that "Nasser did not want war; he wanted a victory without
war."
- In a speech at the Israeli National Defense College, PM Menachem Begin said:
(Jerusalem Post, 08/20/1982) "The Egyptian concentrations in the Sinai approaches
do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with
ourselves. We decided to attack him"
- Rabin (Le Monde, 29/02/1968): "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions
he sent to the Sinai on May 14 would not have been sufficient to launch an
offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it"
>but Israel did NOT strike Jordan or the west bank, it's WELL DOCUMENTED that they
>bombarded west jerusalem which resulted in a quick and swift Israeli responce.
= Jordan was in a defense treaty with Egypt. Israel knew that, and hence,
can't pretend it was SURPRISED by a Jordanian bombardment, that "MADE" Israel (how
convenient) take Jerusalem which it coveted and failed to conquer in 1948. Hint:
Israel expected Jordan to attack since it had a treaty with Egypt, and hence provide
her with the pretext to continue its 1948 conquest of Jerusalem, which it couldn't
fullfil then.
Even if one assume that Israel was justified in occupying all of that land,
ISRAEL HAD NO RIGHT, WHATSOEVER, TO VIOLATE THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS BY MOVING ITS
CIVILIAN POPULATION INTO THE TERRITORIES IT OCCUPIED. That's called
COLONIZATION, and, it exposes the lies of the "defensive" motive behind
Israel's 1967 war ("I need your house, car, livelihood, and to exploit
your labor to obtain security for myself", yea right). I am still waiting
for you, or any other Israeli to answer this point. The silence is deafening.
In pure and simple words: Israel coveted that land. If the above is not convincing
enough, I don't know what is.
>You have made quite clear that "israelis do not consider arabs as equal"... i'm
>afriad you have a VERY big bias there I AM ISRAELI, I have MANY friends there,
>and arabs in general are considered equal,
That's quite sweet, especially the "in general" part!
First, there are two "kinds" of Palestinians living within historic Palestine
today: those living under Israeli occupation, and those carrying Israeli
citizenship. I am sure NO rational human being would claim that the former
have anywhere near equal rights as Israelis. No need to really discuss that
here, as I have a WHOLE site to show otherwise.
As for the latter group -- the Israeli-Arabs, I recommend a visit to the
"Zionism I" page and read sections about Racism. For one, the fact that
Israel is a "state for Jews" and "NOT for its citizens", should give out the
first hint. Arabs are restricted --until recently, legally-- from purchasing
land. Their towns get the short end of funding, by admission of Israeli leaders.
They account for twice their ratio of Israeli poverty. They are restricted from
employment opportunities reserved for those who serve in the Army (i.e. Jews and Druze).
Upper echelon positions rarely have Israeli-Arabs in them. Israeli-Arabs are
extensively searched at airports, and when they demonstrate against their
unequal treatment, as citizens of "democracies" do, they are shot at with live
ammunition by the army, instead of water canons and tear gas thrown by riot
police.
When recently, for example, 300 Jewish settlers carried torches and marched
toward the house of Arab Knesset member Asmi Bshara, and attempted to burn it
down, none of them was harmed, let alone stopped by Israel's army. One
could only wonder whether 300 Israeli-Arabs would even make it alive, should
they decide to go to the house of a Jewish Knesset member with torches.
Israel's birth myths, massacres, rapes and the "new" historians.
================================================================
Israel opened some of its 1948 archives in the 1980s. Based on that,
updated history was written. Aside from the various inflated/deflated
accounts by victims/victimzers, it turned out, on the whole, that what
Israelis grew up to know as "history", was mostly myth -- stories of noble
war of "defense", "independence", and "purity of arms", etc. It is, therefore,
only natural that I quote for you from the "new" historians' account, which
is ever-growing today. The "newness" of their account stems only from the
date the records were opened. Why should I rely, as you do, on moth-eaten
dusty "heroic" history, derived from Israeli leaders' proclamations and
slogans, made mostly for public consumption and world opinion, instead of
factual, historical and governmental documents that were once kept away from
the public, but are now available for all to see?
The updated history showed that most of what the Arabs were saying
--especially that Palestinians were violently expelled or fled in terror,
and NOT that Arab leaders asked them to leave-- was true. Israeli army behaved
as violently and as murderously as any army, it turned out: massacres, rapes,
etc. Actually, massacres and general methods to terrorize the locals were more
common here than other armies, as there was a need to "cleanse" the land of
non-Jews. Sorry if that doesn't match the fantasies, and fairy tales of a "moral"
army and "purity of arms" you and other Israelis grew up with, but facts are facts.
Another one of the cherished myths of Israel, was that the latter was earnestly
seeking peace after the war, while the Arabs were none compromising. Aside from
public rhetoric, the truth turned out to be the EXACT opposite -- that Israel
was the one who refused to compromise or allow refugees to return.
On the issue of rape: from Morris to Pappe to Palumbo, to Segev, to Ben
Gurion's to Lapierre, etc, they all say cases of rape were very common as
a terror tactic to encourage the population to leave. It is highly UNLIKELY
that testimony by arab women about being raped was exaggerated, noting the
sensitivity of Arab culture to the issue of rape. After the Deir Yassin
massacre, Arab women who displayed the same symptoms of a raped woman, would
REFUSE and feel shame to speak about being raped. So, in the case of rape
particularly, I would say that Arab women testimony is the OPPOSITE of exaggerated.
What better display of the Israeli "Defense" Force's "morality" than today's
shooting of children by Israeli sharpshooters or perhaps Rabin's "break their
bones" order, or Israeli leaders sanctioning of bombardment of civilian areas
throughout the decades, or the killing of POWs, etc? All of these were/still
are being condemned by countless human rights organizations, INCLUDING Israeli
ones, like Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, Physicians for Human Rights,
UN, etc. (Please, no more of the "they are all anti-Israel").
Every country has its fairy tales and myths of heroism about its past. That helps
fuel the national identity of its citizens. As an Arab, I too was taught about
"noble" and "moral" Arab conquests -- always called "civilizing missions". It took
a lot of effort on my part to fight years of indoctrination, and to place myself in
the conquered's shoe. But I have. It is now your turn as an Israeli to follow
suite.
Arab Jews, and the Arab Israeli component
=========================================
You keep bringing the Arab dimension, as does almost all defenders of Israel and
Zionism, perhaps to justify what Israel did to the Palestinians or at least change
the subject of, and divert attention from Israel's original sin. Be it the issue of
Arab Jews, that Arab states are non-democratic, or what have you. That however will
NOT relieve you and other defenders of Israel/Zionism from having to answer for
Israel's major crime: the dispossession of the Palstinians. THIS IS the core of
the conflict, which is anavoidable fruit of Zionism. Palestine IS the Palestinians'
homeland from which they were terrorized by Zionists into fleeing or were expelled.
Whether Arab countries agreed to settle them (Jordan) or not (Lebanon) is an
important, but a SIDE issue to the core CAUSE of the conflict. (My neighbor is hardly
the one to blame for not housing the other neighbor that *I* kicked out of his
house.) Just like it is an important but side issue whether the allies could
have saved the Jews in WWII by bombing Auschwitz, which does NOT change the fact
that the Nazis WERE guilty and have to compensate the victims.
On the issue of Arab Jews: No one's denying that the Arab countries have
AT TIMES mistreated their Jews, which was a factor in their emigration to Israel
or elsewhere. These Jews had full rights as regular citizens. The only thing
they were exempted from is military service. There were no institutionalized
discrimination against them like there is against non-Jewish Israelis today,
although many Arab-Jews were caught sabotaging some places (Egypt 1954) and
spying on their own countries (Eli Cohen) for Israel.
But I personnally feel very upset at the treatment these received in some of
the Arab countries, by some people or by some goverments. Be it the confiscation
of their properties after they left, or the implicit culture of equating Jews
with Zionists -- a byproduct of Zionism. These Jews, however, were not escorted
to the borders with machine guns, or terrorized away by fear of rape and massacre,
as were the Palestinians in 48. Nor were they mistreated BEFORE the onset of
Zionism/Israel, which should raise a fairly large eyebrow as to how Israel
became a CAUSE of anti-Semitism, instead of CURE.
While I am deeply bothered, at the confiscation of Arab-Jewish property, I
can understand somewhat where the decision comes from. When someone leaves
your country to join your enemy --the same enemy that continues to bombard
your bretheren and torment others-- you're harldy expected to be jubilant
about that? If a WWII Jew left the Warsaw ghetto to join Nazi forces in
their genocide against the Jews, how would his Jewish friends react? Would
they confiscate his property before he leaves? If they do would you blame
them? I am not saying these situations are identical, but the victim-
joining-victimizer-arousing-anger-among-fellow-victims does apply, apart
from scale.
Not to mention that changing the topic from the Palestine-Israel issue,
to Arab-Oriental-Jews issue, might demand raising the issue of how Israel
ITSELF treated these Jews when they arrived to the "promissed land" -- hardly
a rosy welcome by European Zionists one might add. Tom Segev has written
interesting stuff on that issue (e.g. The Seventh Million/1949 First Israelis)
that you should explore before you decide again to raise the issue of the
treatment of Arab Jews by Arab countries, let alone claim that Arab Jews
"integrated into Israel perfectly". (If they were, Menahem Begin wouldn't
have become PM in 77, but that's a whole new topic).
I here acknowledge, as an Arab and above all a human being, the RIGHT of Arab
Jewish refugees to RETURN to their homes, and get compensation from Arab
governments. When they come, I will embrace them and tell them I am sorry
for the ill treatment they might have received from some Arab people/governments.
Now, as an Israeli and a human being, can YOU do likewise, and repeat the same
thing regarding Palestinian refugees!!!!!! I didn't think so! Afterall, if Israel
had allowed Palestinian refugees to return after the 1948 war, it is highly
likely that the Arab-Israel conflict would have ended in 1948. Sadly, Israel
wanted a JEWISH state and wanted to expand its territory at the expense of
Palestinian land. It is just them damn Palestinians who can't clear out the
way for the Zionists to realize their dream.
More on Palestinian refugee issue:
==================================
>"We will stay this way until we go back to our home, the one where our
>grandfather lived"... c'mon! i don't like how history was dictated.. but this
>is basically they're choice, they choose to NOT reintegrate into society
First, many refugees, if not most/all, would like to move on , if they are
allowed to by their host countries. But still, I don't find anything wrong
with refugees clinging to the RIGHT to return to their ancestral homes, that
were lost just 50 years ago (or less). In fact I know of another people who
say they clinged to their homes for 2000 years and demand a right to return!
(Hint!) Do you still not like "how history was dictated" -- aside from the
fact that this statement absolves the victimizer, Israel, from its guilt?
>as i am revieweing more and more evidance that many Israelis
>suffered EXACTLY the same conditions, but
>"stood on their own feet" and made themselfs a new life, unlike their
>palestinian counterparts who rather live in suffering and hate. I'm in NO WAY
>saying these are exactly the same, nor anything of the sort, but i'm saying that
>facts here have been modified AGAINST israel here, proof
>has been given..
You are here implying that the Palestinian refugees *CHOOSE* to live "in suffering
and hate". How interesting.
Some Palestinians refugees have been ALLOWED to move on by their host countries.
Jordan's a prime example, as 60% of today's Jordanians are actually Palestinians.
The other extreme is Lebanon, where today 360,000 Palestinian refugees are still
NOT ALLOWED to integrate by Lebanon. How about the 800,000 of the 1.1 million
Palestinians living in the concentration camp called Gaza, who are refugees?
Please enlighten me on how you propose these "stand on their feet", knowing that
they are surrounded by Israel, they have been living under a cruel Israeli
occupation, that sucks out their resources, uses them for cheap labor, builds
settlements on their lands, tortures them when they complain, etc. I am all ears!
>not only the palestinians lost their possetions and land etc etc, and several
>brought it on themselfs
You're not the first, nor will you be the last to use that blame-the-victim
argument. It's always been used by abusive parents and husbands "they brought it on
themselves". The Nazis claimed "self defense" against the Jews during and before
WWII. Colonizers do the same to the locals.
>Just because Scuds launched at israel were filled with cement in the gulf war,
>doesn't mean it couldn't of been chemical. a few landed in the HEART of
>Tel-aviv.. if they had been chemical weapons which Saddam has shown willingness
>2 use against Iran they could've killed over 1/2 a million people with almost
>a click of their fingers yet you claim that arab nations are not a threat? poor
>argument my friend!
Some Arab countries do have chemical weapons. But using them is a different
manner, however. They might sound extreme, but Arab leaders are not so stupid
as to use chemical weapons against nuclear Israel back by the US. They know
that that would mean total oblitaration of their countries by Israeli atomic,
neutron and hydrogen bombs that would make chemical weapons look like toys.
When Saddam used his chemical weapons against the Iranians and Kurds, he knew
there would not be grave retribution for his actions. He knew he had some form
of a "green light" from western leaders, who helped supply him with these
weapons. He also knows that the light is extremely RED when it comes to using
them against Israel.
In closing
Nationalism (as well as religion) sometimes makes one overstreatch his "reason"
to absurd ends to justify his countrymen's crimes. With your nationalism for
Israel burning high, I am here reminded by the following words of George Orwell:
"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his
side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."
Your have raised important questions and myths that needed a response. But your
arguements are all clearly avoiding the central issue of the Arab-Israeli conflict:
namely Israel's dispossession of the Palestinians and not allowing them to return.
Worse yet, when the 1948 topic comes up, you try to lessen Israel's crime. This
attitude is representative of many Israelis, with which there will never be real
peace.
Best,
Sam
12 Nov 2000
Amazing page! Thank you for revealing to me the atrocities of the
American industrial-military complex. I am doing auniversity presentation on the
disinformation of the Gulf War and, after fruitless searching, your page is by
far the paramount of all resources. Truly mind expanding!
Thank you Sir/Madame. --Sam
11 Nov 2000
Dear Sam,
Thank you for all the time and effort you have put into your web site. It is
really a one stop resource for arab-israeli conflict. I found a lot of
information on your site that I couldn't have possibly got from any one place.
Keep up the good work ..... Imran, Saudi
You're very kind Imran. --Sam
9 Nov 2000
Salam alaykoom Sam,
Your site fills me with confidence that our struggle is a legitamate and
important quest for the liberation of Palestine. I have lived in Australia all
my life but regularly visit my family in refugee areas in the middle east. Each
time I return to areas in Jordan and Syria, the overwhelming deteriation of
conditions is sadening. The people are oppressed by politics and are unsure of
their future, especially children. Ironically, the only visual description I can
relate to is the footage of Nazi actions against the jews and other minorities
in WWII.
I am priviledged to have acquired my education in Australia and to have some
semblance of my future, most of my people dont. I believe its up to Palestinians
living abroad to let the west be aware of the gross ethnic cleansing of our
people and the hypocritical nature of western governments, especially the USA.
Your site is read by many of my friends and colleagues who have until the Al
Aqsa Intifada been unsure of the complexities of the Arab against Israel
conflict.
We will never give up, we will carry our torches through the darkness and never
lose sight of the light at the end of the tunnel.
Israel, in one way or another, will pay for the sins they commit against the
indigenous people of Palestine, and our children.
Allah u Akbar
Thank you for your support. --Sam
9 Nov 2000
Thank for an excellent resource. It is extremely well researched and was very
helpful to me
Thank you. --Sam
8 Nov 2000
THE WORLD WILL [NEVER] HAVE PEACE-UNTIL THE ''PRINCE OF PEACE'
RULES ALL MENS HEARTS!!
****************JESUS IS LORD****************
Yes, but in the mean time what are we human beings going to do about fellow
human beings, being oppressed? Shall we be mere spectators, or perhaps be
the good Samaritans God expects us to be? Shall we not extend a helping
hand to end their suffering? --Sam
5 Nov 2000
My dear arab friends what will you do when, you are out of oil ? In
my opinion you'll have to intercouse each other in the a s s and nobody would
care less.
4 Nov 2000
Sam-This is a prodigeous effort and amazingly impressive.I never saw
it and don't know if it is new.Please keep it for a long long time as it is an
excellent resouce especially for skeptics and for American Jews.I put it in
favorites and hope to refer others to it. I reached it on the sidebar at
iap-Eileen Rodan(Amoudi)
Thank you for your kind support. --Sam
2 Nov 2000
All of your comments are full of hatred,envy and antisemitism.You could never
and you will never succeed when your energy is hatred.
If you would like peace you wouldn't put the condition of land in exchange.I've
never met a peace agreement where the condition is "if you don't give me land
you don't have peace"=peace is not what you seek.
See response to 2nd letter (dated 2 Nov) below.
>If you would like peace you wouldn't put the condition of land in exchange.
Interesting convoluted logic of Cause and Effect. The lack of peace IS
a result of Israel's theft of land. Israel takes the land, then asks the
dispossessed for peace. If I come with my army and buldozers and take your
land and house away, without even compensating you, and perhaps killing some of
your family members, would you give me peace without me at least compensating
you?
Sam
2 Nov 2000
Great site. Keep up the good work. It's a breath of fresh air in the midst of
all the hatred and bigotry expressed by both sides.
--Karim M****
2 Nov 2000
SAM.....you are hardly an objective webmaster in this subject.
your articles reek with hatred of the jews.
your type of attitude gives us the stimulant for survival that you obvvviously
have not figured out, like many other hqaters.
May your hatreds dissolve.
Only if you equate "hatred of Jews" with "exposing Israel's countless and
enormous crimes against the Palestinians" -- the mission of this site. --Sam
30 Oct 2000
My e-mail is manofsteel300@**** an i would like to know when you respond to
my comments
Please if you do, post the entire message, not only sections. I belive that this
would be of great interest to whoever reads the feedback
THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST
Since the Middle East crisis has worsened in recent weeks, and since Arab
terrorism is mounting to an increasingly dangerous degree, endangering our own
armed forces and American civilians, we should pause to consider certain
historical facts which have been reported by an Arab-American journalist, Joseph
Farah, who writes a column, "Between the Lines," on 2000 WorldNetDaily.com.
[... excerpts of article clipped.]
I will not post your excerpts of the mentioned article, but, rather a link
to the whole thing! Here it is.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001011_xcbtl_myths_brmi.shtml
I responded several times to a similar argument posed by Mr. Farah, who
represents anything BUT the opinion of Arab-Americans. The crux of his
argument is basically "there's never been a country called Palestine".
The answer to that is: SO WHAT? Most countries of the world today didn't
exist before this century! As one Arab activist, Ali Abunimah, put
it: "PEOPLE DO NOT DERIVE THEIR RIGHTS FROM THE ENTITIES THEY LIVE IN, BUT
FROM THEIR EXISTENCE AS HUMAN BEINGS." Just because there was no country
called Palestine, does not give the right to Zionist Jews to uproot the
people living on that land, steal their houses, farms and crops, destroy
other villages, etc, as Israel did to the Palestinians. Whether the
"Palestinians" (and for that matter, Israeli) identity existed before
this century, is not the issue. That's becaues today THEY EXIST, whether
one likes or not.
>Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East
>lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.
Aside from the fact that Arab countries are seperate entities, the same
argument above by J. Farah can be applied to, say, Rhode Island, the smallest
state in the United States. Does that fact allow the Indians to now
claim all of Rhode Island, dispossess all the population, with massacres and
ethnic cleansing, and take their places and livelihood? After all, one
should keep in mind that "the Americans control 99 percent of the US
lands. While Rhode Island represents minuscule percentage".
What rubbish and misrepresentation, trying to use legalities and
technicalities to deny some people their fundamental human rights,
and treat them like animals. Shame!
Sam
27 Oct 2000
Hello Sam:
I have been a regular visitor to your websit for the past few weeks.
I am also an Arab(Palestinian)-American. I spend many hours every
night through your web pages. I am so glad to have found your site
for my own education and for the value it represent in educating
the world about "Palestine" and the forces behind its demise. If I
can be of any help, please let me know. I strongly believe in your
mission statement, and we must all act to make it heard. You're doing a
great job. Your site is very informative.
Naser
Thank you Naser for your encouragement. It adds to my determination and resolve. --Sam
25 Oct 2000
Hey, i just read your Miscellaneous section: i love your quotes which
you have used with little context... where you took a quote of (e.g.)
a professeur and turned it into viable political information
By the way, by showing the way you have said this i'm highlighting
your very WEAK argument... i also love the section on how you wrote
about Israel getting new weapons constantly, i find this entertaining
because you neglect (purposely, in order to insult the intellegence
of people) to mention how Israel's arch rivals Syria, Iraq and Iran
have been attempting (with success mind you!) to aquire weapons!
some of them have done very well, the Iranian navy and certain parts
of their army are very high tech, enough to pose a threat, yet you
convay (yet again) such a one-sided argument on how israel threatens
Civilian populations, but "i seem to have trouble recalling the last
time Israelis called for a Jihad to wipe out all it's arab neighbours.......
oh wait, thats because they never did, and it was only the Arab (and iran)
Nations
that on MANY occasions did!" therefore i cannot see how you can justify
your claims about israel and it's growing military power!
israel's EXISTANCE was always based around it's more high-tech and more
powerful (and smart mind you) army, i find nothing suprising in their
on-going quest to better it..
Please post this with a responce once you stop being SO BIASED... you claim
your trying to stop Israeli media bias, but your doing it by creating an
anti-israeli bias
this attempt if futile because (if your right about this israeli bias, which you
are to a SMALL extent),
since your both bias none of you have the side of truth... and therefore you
will fail in your "mission"
you are just as low as Israelis in your actions, you are more of a politican
than an historian... please prove
you are not by fixing all your one-sided (therefore BIAS, FAKE) arguments...
if you would like me to highlight all these topics, I'll be more than
happy to show you all of your inconcistencies, bias' and even "Arab propaganda"
(in retaliation for "israeli propaganda")
The context you are seeking for the listed quotes is THE ENTIRETY OF THIS
SITE!
The Arabs have always been getting new weapons, but not of the quality,
and magnitude that Israel received/s from the US. Israel's arsenal,
and her full partnership with the US, makes Israel a virtual extention of
the US military.
Iraq was the most "powerful" and "high-tech" arab country before 1991 (the same
way Iran is described by you). Look how easy it was decimated by the US's high
tech and intelligence, which shows that the mere facts that you are "acquiring
new weapons" counts for ... about nothing, when your enemy has the upper hand
technologically and is fully backed by a super power.
Israel's existence was NEVER threatened -- outside of the propaganda realm.
As an exercise, can you name one case where it was? In `48, when Israel was
weakest in its history vis-a-vis her neighbors, it was on the defensive
against Arab onslaught for three weeks only. The next 10 months she was on
the offensive, beating FIVE Arab armies (sounds threatening doesn't it?). In
`67 her offensive was a breeze, against Syria, Jordan and Egypt (same in `56).
It took her 6 days, as a previous CIA study predicted, to finish the war,
after destroying the entire Egyptian airforce in 2 hours. A US study also
predicted that had the Arabs attacked first in `67 Israel would
still have won, but in about two weeks instead of one. In `73, with full
preparation of Israel's strongest neighbors, and with their combined attacks
from two sides, they ended up defeated losing more land, even though their
attack was a surprise to Israel, including their possession of "state of the
art" SAM missiles. The war lasted less than 3 weeks. In 81, Israel bombed
with ease Iraq's nuclear reactor, without any threats to her pilots. In 82,
Israel marched over Lebanon, with minor losses (compared to those of the
Lebanese and Palestinians). In a quick contact with the "menacing" and
"powerful" Syrian airforce, Israel downed 80+ Syrian jets, while yawning,
without any Israeli jet loss. Syrian (Russian?) pilots didn't know what hit'em.
The 80+ Syrian planes were, I guess, part, of the many weapons that Syria
acquired, that you mention. Saddam's mighty 37 Scuds falling on Israel in
1991 killed three Israelis -- one with a heart attack. The Scuds inaccuracy
as a weapon was also clear. Of course, no Arab country would dare use chemical
or bio weapons, since Israel, whose existence we are told, is always threatened,
can easily wipe out all Arab capitals with few botton pushes. Plus the Arab
countries don't have anyway near Israel's intelligence and information
gathering, from satellites and elsewhere. Israel can see every Arab army
move, but the Arabs don't have similar privilege. I forgot to mention Israel's
new submarine fleet, capable of delivering nuclear head anywhere without
being detected.
So, over the past 52 years, I am still looking for "threats to Israel's
existence" -- aside from Arab rhetoric. Could it be that you have been, like
many westerners/Israelis, deceived into believing Israeli leaders propaganda
that they are "in danger" and hence that the West should pour its money and
armaments on it?
>"i seem to have trouble recalling the last time Israelis called for a
>Jihad to wipe out all it's arab neighbours....... oh wait, thats because
>they never did, and it was only the Arab
OK, you have two beings, ants and elephants: In reposnse to their dispossession
and expulsion by the elephants, the ants threaten, for over fifty years, to
kill the elephants, but does none of that, and anyway has no ability to match
the elephant power. The elephants, on the other hand, don't threaten, in fact
always are careful to SPEAK about wanting peace with the ants, while simultaneously
KILLING countless ants and slowly taking more and more of their lands and houses.
Which one of these is guilty in your opinion? Which one should be stopped?
There is a vast distance between Arab rhetoric and Arab action, that western
audience fall for. Arab rhetoric is usually emotional, sometimes even violent,
threatening and filled with sabre-rattling, usually in response to someone who
stole what's rightfully theirs. Arab actions, on the other hand, are
almost the complete opposite (partially due to their weakness)! Now, take that
formula of rhetoric-versus-actions and reverse it; and viola, you have Israel! While
Israel, expert in western PR, speaks softly and "sincerely" in peace-words, a
trait the western leaders supporters of Israel like (perhaphs to explain their
blind support for Israel to their public), its actions are anything but. So,
you can literally find countless calls for Jihad and "death to Israel" in Arab
circles; however, these are coupled with almost no violent actions against Israel.
But the countless ACTS of "jihad" belong to Israel, and that's what a historian
and an observer should mainly focus on. Usually, too, the waves of Arab rhetoric
are a RESPONSE to some atrocity by Israel.
Israel has committed many warcrimes, from massacres to deliberate and
indiscriminate bombing of civilians with outlawed weaponry, to poisoning of
Palestinian wells (Suha was right!), to systematic destruction of villages,
to assassination of opposition leaders, to torture, to land theft, etc.
That is documented by Israeli and other historians, and condemned by
endless UN resolutions and human right organizations. Part of the Arab's
violent rhetoric is due to their inability to repel Israel's aggression and
continuous humiliations. So, they vent their anger by cursing her in public.
In turn, to justify its atrocities, all Israel has to do now is point to Arab
RHETORIC! Being unfamiliar with the issue of Arab rhethoric-vs-actions,
Western audience easily fall for the trap. Have you fallen for that too?
Perhaps you will point to terrorism by some desperate Palestinians/Arabs.
But putting this terrorism in its context of Israel's much more vast and potent
terrorism, dispossession and killing of Palestinians, leads an unbiased
observer clearly to the conclusion that Palestinian terrorism is the MINUSCULE
RESPONSE OF A WEAK VICTIM TO HIS VICTIMIZATION.
>your trying to stop Israeli media bias, but your doing it by creating an
> anti-israeli bias....
> since your both bias none of you have the side of truth...
The mission is to show the Palestinian side of the euqation that most westerners
lack. More importantly, MY BIAS IS ON THE SIDE OF THE VICTIM. When one implies
that there are two sides, one is forgetting that, in this case, there clearly is
one overall VICTIM and one overall VICTIMIZER. It is an honor for me to be
presenting the victims case. That's my mission. When I expose the wrongs done
the Palestinians by Israel, then surely that may create an anti-Israel bias.
But that's the truth I am exposing. In other words, the ANTI-ISRAEL BIAS IS
NOT *CAUSED* BY THIS SITE, BUT BY ISRAEL'S ACTIONS. (of course, by Israel, I
mean the Israeli leaders and government, not the people who are mostly mislead
and brain-washed by their government and media).
When one exponses the crimes of the Nazis against Jews in WWII, (without
bothering to mention the crimes by Jews against the Nazis, which are REACTIONS
to their persecution by the latter) then it is not really accurate/fair to
describe that as merely "creating anti-Nazi bias". To bring attention to the
horrors taking place in South Africa 10-20 years ago, activists exposed the
crimes committed by Apartheid regime against blacks. That surely incited
anti-Apartheid feeling, but it also IS, more accurately, telling the world the
truth about the horrors the victims have endured/are enduring, so the world
would act to end them/remember the victims. This is especially necessary in
this case of the Arab-Israeli conflcit when so much potent and powerful
propaganda is being disseminate by the victimzer and its supporters in Western
media.
I hope you will sit back and think about what's above. Think about how it
applies to you as a western audience (?), being manipulated by propaganda. (I
don't mean to be patronizing). Ask yourself this: would you be outraged
at a site showing the crimes of Apartheid against black south Africans,
without mentioning the black's crime against the Apartheid regime? I am sure
you will answer no. Apply that to Israel then. If you still believe that
there's an equality of guilt on both sides of Israel and the Palestinians,
since you are requesting to see the sins of the Palestinians as well, then I
can't help you. You just have been hearing the victimizer's case for too long
that it is now "truth" to you.
Sam
25 Oct 2000
The site is an excellent source of information, news, and analysis.
Especially with the recent bloodshed in the Middle East, many Americans would
benefit from turning here for the best news coverage and true history,
politics,and facts about the situation and region. Thank you for making this
information so widely available. Keep it up!
My thanks to you, visitor. --Sam
23 Oct 2000
You are providing a valuable resource. Thank you for speaking the
truth. I have been reading tonight for about one half hour. I have
had cause recently to search my heart concerning the devastation of
Iraq. I cannot accept the U.S. sanctions. I was particularly dis-
appointed that neither Bush or Gore were willing to speak out against
sanctions. They want to come across as men who will be tough on foreign
policy.
I have bookmarked your page and will revisit it as there's much I want
to read. Do not give up. You are a voice for those who would speak
to Americans, if only they could.
Michael
Your compliments and encouragement are most welcome, Michael. --Sam
22 Oct 2000
O.k..
I've read the feedbacks and the responses, and I have to ask you, sam
(by the way, is it your real name? cause it reminds me so the name of
big country you love to hate so much..).
What did Israel do wrong that she deserve all this hate?
Why do I have to go to the army in the age of 18, and can't go
to college, like every other 18 girl?
What does Lebanon Want from Israel, now? I mean - saying that she wants
her bursting into flames is not so realistic (although you can't
blame her for not trying.. Ho, no). It is easy to say that the
you organisation will not come in peace untill Israel become arabien
(PALESTIN, of course).
Anyway, I used to belive that peace is something that can happen,
But now, all I can see infront of me is fathers and mothers (arabien)
that send their little children to stand in front soldiers,
to throw stones.
My mother don't want to send my brothers the the "war". Why does an
Palestin mother make her?!
Israeli girl.
>O.k..
>I've read the feedbacks and the responses,
If you've truly read this page, then your response above indicate that you
didn't allow your mind to analyze what you were reading, outside of an
ideological frame. The response to ALL the issues you raised had been
answered before -- sometimes more than once!
>and I have to ask you, sam (by the way, is it your real name? cause
>it reminds me so the name of big country you love to hate so much..).
If it's the US you are referring to, then you are wrong. I love this
country and its people, although they are often naive and misguided. What
I hate is the horrible leaders atop it and the corporate media that allows
them to get away with criminal behavior and lying to the public. So, I
am not sure what you are talking about, unless you consider leaders and
people to be the same.
>What did Israel do wrong that she deserve all this hate?
Oh, please not the "Israel is victim" again. Also, again, you must not have
been paying attention when you read my feedback page. I will summarize for
you in few words, what Israel has done to "deserve all this hate". (For detail
you still have to re-read this page. Check out a recent book-review by
Gideon Levy). Israel has dispossessed another people -- the Palestinians, and
maintains a brutal and humiliating occupation. To claim that Israel took the
land in response to Arab initiating attack (not true) is absurd. Kuwait does not
have the right to dispossess Iraqis, expell them and take their land, because Iraq
attacked her.
When some Palestinian vicitms reacted to their dispossession by Israel, the latter
"retaliated" in an-eye-for-twenty-eyes fashion, planting an even more hatred among
its victims. The rest of Israel's crimes, including many war crimes, such as the
murder of prisoners of war, are echoed in countless UN resolutions and human right
organizations condemnations, and is WHAT THIS SITE IS ALL ABOUT, my friend. So,
start reading earnestly; this time pause, think, and analyze everything you read
outside from the frame of "Israel is right" you have been confined into.
>Why do I have to go to the army in the age of 18, and can't go
>to college, like every other 18 girl?
Ask your leaders. Again, this is related to your previous question, which
necessitates that you first MUST understand the situation. Again, start by reading
the articles in this site, while placing yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians.
Fill your heart with compassion, then visit a refugee camp nearby. Talk to the
refugees, or to any local Palestinians. Ask them to tell you their story. You
will find one core issue remaining the same: Israel's original sin against the
Palestinians, and her refusal to correct it justly.
>What does Lebanon Want from Israel, now? I mean - saying that she wants
>her bursting into flames is not so realistic (although you can't
>blame her for not trying.. Ho, no). It is easy to say that the
>you organisation will not come in peace untill Israel become arabien
>(PALESTIN, of course).
Aside from the "Lebanon is mighty and scary"/"Israel is weak and afraid"
distorted implications in the above formulation, Lebanon wants few things from
Israel. Most immediately, the return of the hostages from Hizbollah that
Israel has imprisoned for years as "bargaining chips". Then, and most
importantly, allow the 360,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, dispossessed
by Israel, to return and get compensation. Finally, apologize for all the
carnage, massacres and death Israel has inflicted on Lebanon.
What do you mean by "my organization"? You must be referring to one Hizbollah
site where my site happenend to be linked to. I have NOTHING to do with that
site, or with Hizbollah.
>Anyway, I used to belive that peace is something that can happen,
>But now, all I can see infront of me is fathers and mothers (arabien)
>that send their little children to stand in front soldiers,
>to throw stones.
The racist implications that Palestinians have no emotions toward their
children, that they are willing to use them as stealers of media coverage, is
sickening. Even animals care about their offsprings, afterall. Shame on the
descendents of Holocaust survivors for using the same racist reasoning that
their Nazi tormentors once used against them. Shame!
>My mother don't want to send my brothers the the "war". Why does an
>Palestin mother make her?! Israeli girl.
Palestinians, like any other human beings, believe in freedom or death.
The Peace Process was leading the Palestinians into a form of legitimized
occupation -- apartheid if you will, but not freedom. Check out the map of
what the Palestinian state would look like under Barak's plan of "90% land"
returned, and you will know what the Palestinians are mad about. You might
want to check also how much of the West Bank water will Israel control. 90%
might sound generous, until you realize that it is in the form of patches of
land, disconnected and surrounded by Israeli military. Is this (and is Israel)
fair? Especially after the Palestinians have relinquished their rights to 78%
of historic Palestine, and accepted to negotiate only over 22% of that, that
Gaza and the W. Bank are. Why doesn't Israel want to give ALL of WB and Gaza
back? Worse yet, why does Israel want to lock Palestinians in reservations of
land, disconnected, weak and economically dependent on Israel? Is this
freedom?? If you were a palestinian would you accept such "peace"?
I didn't think so.
Sam
20 Oct 2000
We are going to kill all you palestinians! We will slaughter you!
You w'll never get your own state!
Baruch Goldstein, heaven
BG_Hero@heaven.rip
If Goldstein's in "heaven", I pray that "hell" will be my resting place.
Sam
20 Oct 2000
You almost seemed to be basing your opinions on research and
intellect. Almost. The tell-tale sign that this isn't the case, and your
contention is one based on judeophobia (anti-semitism relates to Arabs too), is
your comparison between Judaism and Fascism/Nazism. I can comprehend how
non-Jews can misunderstand Zionism and its goals and purposes, but to use the
Holocaust to advance your argument, and compare Jews to Nazis, is bigotry. You
should be ashamed that your intellectual integrity allows you to corrupt
people's minds.
Read this page for responses to almost the same, over and over and over,
feedback as yours. It is NOT Judaism that I have compared with Nazism;
rather, it is Israel's behavior toward the Palestinian.
Sam
19 Oct 2000
oh come on!
I KNOW you are and educated man but looking at a very complex situation from
only one window is just plain hipocracy...
Even when u did put articles of Israeli jurnalists they were left wing radical
opinions supporting palestinians and arabs.
I got to this site by a link from hezbollah's site.
Please do not pretend to be the one showing the world how cruel israel and IDF
are...
I dare you to put up pictures of palestinian acts of senseless violence like
those two poor soldiers they lynched in ramallah...
So please do not try and convince people that Zionism and Nazism are the same.
If it wasnt for Israel palestinians would starve, we provide you with your bread
within our country and u slaughtet innocent people and destroy holy places.
I really hope there is a god, for your sake...
Read this page for responses to almost the same, over and over and over,
feedback as yours. The situation in the Middle East is NOT complex, and
the solution is rather easy: IMPLEMENT INTERNATIONAL LAW (res 242 and 194).
Voila.
Sam
19 Oct 2000
Dear Sam,
May God bless and protect you and all truth-seekers like you. And most
importantly, may God bring about the fruition of all your efforts.
Yours,
Samy
(An Egyptian citizen living in the USA)
PS: That really is my name...
Thank you Samy for your kind words. --Sam
19 Oct 2000
Am Yisrael Chai!!
It's nice, however, to see that you are using the internet as a medium of
communication, as opposed to stones, knives and fire bombs. What doews it feel
like to be semi civilised?
The Jewosh People.
Ditto... only replace stones, kinves and fire bombs with tanks, missile,
and helocopter gun-ship. --Sam
19 Oct 2000
Dear Sam,
Thanks for taking the time, as a web developer and researcher I know how much
time you needed to launch this site. And as a human I know how much it WILL cost
you. May Allah protect you, you are displaying that Arab have never been racist.
Here as a humble effort I send you some links that could be to the site:
[.... links and furhter comments about Fisk deleted]
Thanks Sam,
Soha.
Thank you Soha. --Sam
18 Oct 2000
free ron arad free 3 kidnaped soldiers
you are nothing but a mean group of criminals
No one knows whether Arad is dead or alive. Regardless, would Israel release
an Arab pilot who was captured in similar circumstances? As for the three
soldiers, Israel keeps in its jails, locked for long years, about 20 Lebanese
hostages -- called "bargaining chips" in Israel's lingo. Why is Israel not
releasing them, or even using them as "bargaining chips"?
Also, read this page for responses to almost the same, over and over and over,
feedback as yours
Sam
18 Oct 2000
This site is a dusgrace and should be shut down.
Israel's inhumanity is the main disgrace I see in this site. Maybe
it is Israel that should be "shut down" -- or perhaps, be forced to
abide by international and human right laws for a change.
Sam
17 Oct 2000
Dear Sam - -
I suppose culturally, I can't imagine how anyone can have such condemnation for
another. And when I say anyone, I mean you for Zionists, and Zionists for
Arabs, etc. I'm not religiously fanatical. I am at times somewhat envious of
those who are. At times... Usually, religious fanatical have the distasteful
habit of abandoning logic for fanatacism. This applies to you, Zionists, Arabs,
Jehovah's Witness, etc. At least the Jehovah's Witness, keep their abuse within
their own organization. As for the other three mentioned, ALL are guilty of
inflicting violence upon the innocent in the name of religion. Your page is as
bad as the propoganda you denounce. I know that there are things in this life
that you cannot change about another person. You will read this and continue to
denounce the Zions, they will continue to attack Palestinians, who will in turn
terrorize everybody to get their message to the world. Everybody is wrong.
Writing that won't make it change. Your !
reading won't make it change. The true likelyhood is that it will never change.
It is three independent realities. The Zions don't care about the abuse to the
innocent Palestines. The Palestines don't care about the the terrorists
explosively carrying their message to any innocents anywhere. And the rest of
the world is tired of all the crap and is really to the point of not caring who
is innocent. Unfortunately, your page is not about truth. That is not the same
as saying it is not in any way truthful. Your page is one-sided. Instead of
blasting away at the Zionists, you should be elaborating on the atrocities BOTH
sides are guilty of, and suggesting solutions. You are nothing more than an
instigator, which in turn makes you part of the problem. Stop being part of the
problem. Stop contributing to the fanatical hatred perpetrated by both sides.
Pages like yours stimulate a hatred for all sides. You evoke hatred from the
Zionist for what they see as a page of lie!
s perpetrated about them. You evoke hatred from the Palestinians for what they
see as a truthful accounting of wrong doing on the part of the others. And you
evoke a hatred from uninvolved third parties directed at any occupants of the
middle east. Here is the truth: The British are guilty of atrocities toward
any number of countrys they invaded the Germans are guilty of atrocities
against not only Jews but the mentally handicapped and other "substandard"
people during the second world war the Chinese are guilty of atrocities against
many of their own people the U. S. is guilty of atrocities against the native
Americans, Vietnamese, Africans (before and after they became Americans), and
others every country is guilty of some atrocity towards another. Point out the
guilt is not the hard part. Establishing the blame is not the challenge. There
is plenty to go around. Maybe if you spent more time looking for the solution,
any peaceful solution, if all those involved c!
ould redirect their energy from hate to peace, the resolution might actually be
reasonable. Hatred is easy. That's the truth. Look outside the box. The
answer is not inside.
From a concerned world citizen
On the surface, you express a legitimate concern. Unfortunately, below
the surface there lies in your argument an unfamiliarity with the crux of the
whole conflict. This is reflected in an underlying assumption throughout your
argument, that happens to be badly distorted. There seems to be an equating of
guilt and violence on both sides, rather than a more accurate "victim versus a
victimzer" and "cause and effect" formulation. How would you feel if I tell you
that, apart from scale, "Both Jews and Nazis were guilty during WWII"? That's
how I feel when you tell me that "both" parties here are (equally, more or less)
guilty. I am further assured of your only-high-level familiarity with this
topic when I see you describe the conflict
as being done "in the name of religion". Religion is one small component
exploited by supporters of the victimizers.
The magnitude of the condemnation I have for the Zionists on my site (in the
form of legitimate mostly mainstream media articles) that have bothered you,
is fully in line with the magnitude of the crime the Zionists have committed.
If you disagree, then you don't really know about the magnitude of their crime.
Even their ideology --Zionism, or an exclusively Jewish state, on a land that
has a majority of non-Jews-- should indicate to you what those bothersome
and terrorist Palestinians are complaining about.
>Your page is as bad as the propoganda you denounce.
>....
>Your page is one-sided. Instead of blasting away at the Zionists, you should
>be elaborating on the atrocities BOTH sides are guilty of, and suggesting
>solutions.
First, everything on this site is true, and many of it from main-stream media.
The difference between this and Zionist propaganda, is that one, the Zionists',
is made on behalf of the victimizer, while the other, mine, is made on behalf
of the victim. Of that I am proud. The Western mainstream media has done an
evil thing, presenting the propaganda of the victimizer, while giving little
chance to the victim to balance, which is why the truth is criminally distorted
in people's minds. My site is a minuscule contribution in an effort to balance
the endless victimizer propaganda. In other words, I consider myself the
victim's lawyer, if you will, trying to articulate his case. Thus, I don't see
a need to help the victimizer, when his lawyer gets all the air-time and
press-space s/he needs to make, inflate, exaggerate and distort his case, while
only an extremely limited time is allowed the victim's lawyer? Couple that
with the terror that the vicitim's lawyer faces, in an attempt to silence his
defense, at the hands of supporters of the vicitimzers.
As to suggesting a solution: You obviously have not read the mission statement!
There, it is clearly stated that the solution, in few words, boils down to
the implementation of international law, which Oslo seems to have annulled.
In few words: "IMPLEMENT RESOLUTION 242 AND 194". The first calls on Israel
to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, the second calls on Israel to allow
Palestinian refugees it expelled/made to flee, to return. It is that simple.
Implementing it, with a belligerent, hostile and militarily powerful Israel,
is another matter. ONLY the US, who has shielded Israel from international law
for decades, and has armed it to the teeth, has the power to make Israel
implement international law.
>You will read this and continue to denounce the Zions, they will continue to
>attack Palestinians, who will in turn terrorize everybody to get their message
>to the world
As long as the Zionists continue to colonize, terrorize and dehumanize the
Palestinians, I will keep on informing the world about it. This is going on
everyday while Palestinian leaders talk "peace" with the Israelis. Behind the
screen Israeli buldozers are "quietly" demolishing Palestinian homes, making new
"Jews-only" highways, expanding settlement colonies, while the world sleeps.
Nothing justifies terrorism. However, the truth is had *some* Palestinians
not done their horrible 1970s terrorism, it is possible that you
would not know who they were, and they would end as "just another crushed
people like the Kurds". Sad, but in a way true. But, note that Palestinian
terrorism is ONLY a minuscule response to their uprooting and whole-scale
terrorization by Israel over 50 years, continuing on today. In the decade
following 1967, Israel demolished 17,000 Palestinian homes. How inhumane
can one get? How would you react when you find out that in one instance in
1982, Ariel Sharon, then defense minister of Israel, oversaw the slaughter of
3 times more Palestinian civilians than the COMBINED TOTAL OF ALL THE
NOTORIOUS PALESTINIAN TERRORISM OF THE PAST THREE DECADES?? That should
give one an idea about how our media manipulate the facts for us, in this case,
inflating the victims crimes, while downplaying the victimizers', if at all
reporting it.
>And the rest of the world is tired of all the crap and is really to the
>point of not caring who is innocent.
The solution to end the world's "tireness of all the crap" is to help justice
prevail. Actually, the message is more to Americans than to the world.
Americans have the ability of making Israel accept letting the Palestinians
have some life, without the bantustans of the clear apartheid outcome of the
"peace process". But, the American public is naive, and mostly clueless; it
honestly believes that Clinton is doing his best to help peace prevail. What's
actually happening is that Clinton is trying to make Arafat force his people to
capitulate to a "peace" where Israel gives the Palestinians patches of land,
totally surrounded by Israel, who controls their borders, skies and water.
Then we naively wonder: "why don't these damn Palestinians just accept `peace',
and stop bothering us with their crap"?
>you evoke a hatred .... the Germans are guilty of atrocities against not only
>Jews .... during the second world war ....
>Establishing the blame is not the challenge. There
>is plenty to go around. Maybe if you spent more time looking for the solution,
>any peaceful solution, if all those involved c!
>ould redirect their energy from hate to peace, the resolution might actually be
>reasonable. Hatred is easy. That's the truth. Look outside the box. The
>answer is not inside.
My hope is certainly not to evoke hatred. Rather, it is, YES, to establish
guilt, or "blame" as you put it. But contrary to what you state, establishing
blame *IS* a challenge in this case, when the whole issue has been so severely
distorted by the media and leaders, that you (and the Western world) now think
"both" sides are guilty (or that Palestinians are victimizers). That is
a horrendous distortion!
One needs to establish the blame not only for the "little" crimes taking place
daily, but mainly for the whole conflict. Once that happens -- once the world
(actually the Western world) knows CLEARLY who's guilty, and what it is they
are guilty of, then the solution will be at hand. Right now, my task is to
adjust the colossal distortion of the media I mentioned over and over.
Sam, another concerned citizen of the world.
17 Oct 2000
go to hell
17 Oct 2000
Excellent. Excellent. Page.
I have just one question.
I have heard that some big american organisations such as
McDonnalds, Intel, Levis ... are supporting the Jewish state.
Is this correct?
if yes, do you have any proofs or documents that shows it?
Thanxs
Thank you. What you heard is probably true. Corporations care about
profit. Everything else is unimportant to them. --Sam
15 Oct 2000
Studying the palestinian-israeli conflict I am missing accurate info about the
actural spread of palestinian (arab) population in the State of Israel, and
wanted to know which are currently the cities or villages most populated by
palestinians in Israel, including those not recognized. I would be very
gratefull to get this information. Thanks.
Gaizka
Arab (non-Jewish) population of Israel is a bit over a million. The rest
I don't know. Sorry. --Sam
15 Oct 2000
Hi Sam,
FIRST - this mail may seems long but there are only 3 main ideas
I wanted to express so it should be easy to scan/read.
Most of the text is reference for the 3 ideas.
I have not read all the site - so, sorry that my mail is a little messy and
maybe (most likely!) redundant.
I will follow the advice you gave in a recent post about how to make a start to
understand the conflict.
[.... long friendly submission clipped for space limitation]
OK, that is it from me for now,
Do let me know if there is some way I can support.
I will alert my friends and others to the site.
I will also go back to the site and take a look to see what you
reccommend in relation to making a contribution,
With big THANKS and best regards,
Pat ******
Thank you "Pat from Ireland" for your support, and sorry for clipping your
very long post. I will keep it for myself :). Thanks for your offer of
support too.
Best
Sam
15 Oct 2000
sharmutot, cus emek, inaal rabo, kalbs, tpu
[Arabic curses --Sam]
14 Oct 2000
Hello, I have several questions (which you may not want to answer as
you fear your site will be shut down by "pro zionists" as i believe
was how you phrased it)
1) How old are you exactly (this relates to explaining several factors)
and if you were old enough, did you take a course in uni about
middle eastern politics (cooinsidentaly, do you live in the US or another
country? even just the continent will do)
I am writing following reading your respone to the Message Dated 26/10/00
I have several points I would like to enquire about
Unfortunately no, I do not have your knowlage, and although i offten
do see things i wish to write about here, unfortunately my memory
only goes so far as to remember the event and perhaps one or two names
which for you never seems enough as you want every detail.. either way
i'll let you make up your mind
(P.S. i know you don't agree with the peace talks in their current state, but
they are happening so you have to answer in a way that fits the situation
please)
2) I wish to enquire back onto several quotes you wrote about in responce to the
message posted on the date in question:
"During the age of Zionism, however, anti-Jewish discrimination by Arab
countries can be
directly linked (but never justified) to Zionism and Israel, in addition to
ignorance
among many Arabs of the difference between Zionists and Jews."
Well, i agree that anti-jewish descrimination almost defenately rose
during this time, unfortunately you also state "Ignoreance among many Arabs
of the difference between Zionists and Jews."
now, this is very true, you kept claiming when answering the message
that this page is to highlight Israelis "sins" rather than show the Arabs own
faults
unfortunately they are a WEB that are intertwined a lot, and you seem to have
magically detached them
Much of Israels actions were partially reactions to arab attitude. Look at
today, in recent days Israel
has been holding back mobs of "civilians" (as the palestinian leadership called
them) or soldiers undercover as Israel calls them
firstly.. you Decide wether people who say they will go and fight all isrealis
and jews to reclaim jerusalem aswell as palestine are simply civilians or mobs
of soldiers without guns (many even with)
Many of Israels actions were led by provocations from neighbouring Arab
countries...
many of whom TEACH their young that jews are bad and that (instead of teaching
Isreal EXISTS, it's a fact) Palestine
infact, just a few weeks ago i watched some of my old news tapes.. going back
10-15 years
and it's soo easy for you to talk about how the arab population has done one
thing yet israel has done another
Well, isn't that convineint? Israel has made all the mistakes whereas Arabs were
only responsible for one or two...
well, i see you have wisely seperated state from people for your causes, whereas
you've made very sure to keep them as 1 when it comes to israel
The middle east is a very scary place, no matter who you are.. I lived in israel
during 1995 when terrorists blew themselfs up in busses.. and you know what i
learnt?
no matter wether this is a result of a PURELY Israeli mistake or not (which it
very well isn't, Islamic uprising is being seen all across the world, even
within islamic countries they are killing their own people for god)
Action must be taken... this action resulted in cracking down in palestinian
neighbourhoods, which was unfortunate.. I was even a soldier patrolling in
Hebron a few years ago.. and I saw how everyone hated us (me) ..
that kind of hate does not go away when the soldiers depart, even when
everything you want is achieved.. many people had cold rage which was building
for years because of results of their leaders and israel aswell,
it will not go away, and Israel must deal with it... these are not sins, you
will see any country taking similar actions if they were faced with these kinds
of problems..
Either way, sorry, i have gone off the point here
my point was (incase you've missed it) that basically you keep mentioning that
there are some ignorant Arabs who cause trouble, aswell as their leaders,
unfortunately this is a very old fashioned look, many years ago that was the
case
today however, they've told themselfs soo many lies and exadurations that the
people (not every single person of course, but as you can see it happen) are
believing it, and where you keep shifting blame away from the people and to the
leaders
you keep doing the opposite, blaming israel as a whole, you've never once (from
what i saw) blamed the population very directly, but the way you write things
makes it very obvious to notice how you made it look like "a few bad arabs out
of millions vrs an actually goliath israeli army"
which is just not true, it's true in military terms, but it is not a true
interpretation of the situation, maybe it's just me, but i think you have to
live it to understand it and see a solution.. otherwise what you think is an
"equal balance" is actually nothing more than a false sense making you think you
are correct.
again, sorry if i have lost my point and direction, this window box is kind of
hard to write in and reread all the time, so i just keep writing :P
As for your comment about Freedom of speech
"He didn't agree with Faurisson that the Holocaust was a hoax. Do you
find anything wrong with allowing anyone to say what they want to say, better
known as
freedom of speech, regardless of how absurd what they say is?"
well, i view freedom of speech as a great luxuary (one which is very
tollerated in Israel (except for threats on life) , unlike it's arab neighbours
where you'll probably
be mobbed for saying something people there do not like - i've SEEN it happen)
Freedom of speech is very delicate.. and generally speaking it is not used if
you will result in
hurting and upsetting millions of Jews around the world
what happened when Rashdi (I believe was his name) wrote his book
where he portrayed Muslims as worshiping the devil and following some
kind of bad sect (I have not read the book, but i have seen hundreds of reports
about it)
the result was: 2.5Million dollars for his death by iran and a unilateral call
for his death
by millions of arabs and muslims across the world. People (Jewish or not) will
not tollerate when EVERYTHING
they have been braught up to believe in is simply insulted by someone who knows
relatively little about them
and most likely decided to just challange the system (not the truth). please do
not write back about when someone writes something
ubsered he has freedom of speech because i refuse to believe there words that
can be said to you that if it was someone right infront of you
you'd consider attacking them because he insulted you this much, if thats true,
you are simply not human.. it's a GENETIC mechanism.
Also, although you are very thoroug, I feel i must highlight the fact that your
analysis is based on an
obsession rather than a full realistic political analysis..
you have almost convinced me on a several factors, except the fact that
you lack "sooooooooooooooo" many reactions from arab neighbours and actions from
them that it is clear you are not fully analysing the situation, but rather "out
to get it"...
it is very easy to use facts to prove EITHER side's truth.. i did history in
university (as what america would call a "minor" (it's not the same where i
studied it)) and believe me
we used facts that at face value (especially with other facts) CLEARLY prove one
thing, but after a few alterations, the SAME quotes and facts were used to prove
something else, sometimes even an opposite side...
Your argument is not balanced (of coruse) and therefore, anyone who visits this
site falls into the trap of believing the facts, even though you have managed to
ALTER their truth to reveal something else..
I expect you to clearly deny this, and i wouldn't be suprised if you did, i just
wanted to highlight it.
Thanks for takeing the time to read this (and answer if you do)
Once again sorry for going off the point a little bit, I expected to write a
short message and instead just kept on going trying to prove this 1 simple point
Looking forward to your reply and "analysis" of the situation
--
TL
Your sincerety is appreciated. Thank you for writing. I will respond to
the main points in your argument.
>..this page is to highlight Israelis "sins" rather than show the Arabs own
>faults unfortunately they are a WEB that are intertwined a lot, and you seem
>to have magically detached them. Much of Israels actions were partially
>reactions to arab attitude.
There's indeed a lot of intertwining, of attacks and counter attacks. (Usually
an Arab attack is followed by an Israeli counter-attack that is 20 times
stronger, which in turn induces counter-counter-attack). BUT, one should not
fall for the "little" attacks and countr-attacks. There is here a full conflict
that is caused by an original sin of one side --Israel-- against Palestinians.
There is an *overall* victim (the Palestinians) and an *overall* victimzer
(Israel). So, "Arab attitude" which induced and Israeli "reaction" happens
to have been formed by the way Israel/Zionism came to possess a land that
was inhabitted. That's the origin of the whole mess in the Middle East.
>many of [Arabs] TEACH their young that jews are bad and that (instead of
>teaching Isreal EXISTS, it's a fact)
When Arabs see "Jews" as coming in to take the Palestinians' land, and kick
those out, do you blame the average Arab if he sees "Jews" as bad (aside from
the generalization)? Before Arabs teach their kids that Israel exists, they
want to see Israel reconciling with the Palestinians, atoning for their
original sins of dispossessing the latter, and conveniently taking their
land, crops and houses, while condeming the Palestinians to wretched refugee
camps. Furthermore, before one asks the Arabs to teach their kids about the
existance of Israel, Israelis must teach their kids that Israel, without
manipulation and justifications, kicked out the Palestinians and took their
places, committed countless massacres, almost never attacked in self-defense,
turned down endless peace offers, that Zionism is unjust to non-Jews, etc.
>i see you have wisely seperated state from people for your causes, whereas
>you've made very sure to keep them as 1 when it comes to israel
If I am asked to be specific I WILL separate between state and people. When
I say Israelis do this or that --dispossess Palestinians, for example-- I am
usually referring to the government of Israel. My apologies if that caused
you pain. But on the other hand, one can't discount the fact that Israel and
the US claim to be democracies -- elected by the people, unlike the Arab
goverments that don't usually represent the majority of the people. Like other
people, especially the US, the Israelis have fallen prey to the propaganda of
their government, who tells them that it "defends" itself, and the Arabs
attack, and the land was desolate before Jews came, etc of other myths.
>The middle east is a very scary place, no matter who you are.. I lived in
>israel during 1995 when terrorists blew themselfs up in busses.. and you know
>what i learnt?
The terror the Israeli feel is a RESULT of the way more serious and systematic
terror they inflict on ALL Palestinians, from daily harassement, confiscation,
demolistion, torture, detention without trial, etc. It is a minuscule response
of a victim to his victimization by a powerful victimizer. What one should
have learned from all of this, however, is NOT to ask "what" they did (the
Palestinians) and "who" did it, but rather "why" are they killing themselves
in order to kill some Israelis. One should place himself in the victim's shoe
and analyze irrespective of his biases (I can't claim to succeed in that
myself). Had one done that, s/he would have notices the notable increase in
the level and deadliness of suicide bombing by Hamas before and after Baruch
Goldstein's massacre. Note also Israel's reaction to the massacre. No
settler was disarmed. Goldstein's house was not demolished like any family
house of a Palestinian terrorists. Hebron settlers, the most fanatic of all,
were never prevented from harrassing Palestinians in years to follow. Worse
of all, Israel never decided to remove the settlement from the heart and
throat of Palestinian lands, a clear provocation to Palestinian daily lives.
When Palestinian see, actually, that Israel increases settlement by over 70%
during Oslo "peace" process, how do you want them to react? WHen they see
their land possessed inch by inch every day, while Israel is talking "peace",
how do you suppose they should react to this "peace" -- a peace that is used
by Israel to solidify its occupation? These are the issues you should
focus on instead of "little" actions and big retaliations. To the Palestinians,
you are the soldier who represents the Israeli gov. -- their oppressor and
cause of their 52-year misery.
>I saw how everyone hated us (me) .. that kind of hate does not go away when
>the soldiers depart, even when everything you want is achieved.. many people
>had cold rage which was building for years because of results of their leaders
>and israel aswell, it will not go away, and Israel must deal with it... these
>are not sins, you will see any country taking similar actions if they were
>faced with these kinds of problems..
Again, you saw the hate, but never asked "why"? My site should help you clear
the myths and lies Israel disseminates, and its people and supporter take at
face value. What is it Israel will "deal" with? The infinitessimally small
and impotent response of its victims to their victimization?
>...these are not sins, you will see any country taking similar actions if
>they were faced with these kinds of problems..
You forgot to add the designation "that maintains a repressive occupation"
after the word "country". That should clear out the "these are not sins".
A better formulation would thus become: Any country that maintains a
repressive occupation, interferring with the daily lives of its subjects
--from land confiscation, crop uprooting, theft of water, building of
settlement colonies, etc-- will sure be faced with "these kinds of problems".
Also, how do you know that the hate will remain after "everything we want" is
achieved? Has Israel by any chance explored that avenue of implementing
international resolutions 242 and 194? No? Then what is Israel waiting for?
The Palestinians are not asking for much, and have compromized beyond the
normal. They have relinquished their claim to Palestine, and are asking for
the remaining 22% (W. Bank and Gaza) plus the right of refugees to return.
If Israel does that, and acknowledges its sins, especially the original one,
against the Palestinians, and APOLOGIZES for it the way Germany apologized
for Jews, then we'll have another talk should hate persist. Wounds need
time to heal, but first they must be ALLOWD to heal -- not aggravated
by daily harassement, torture, confiscation, curfews, theft of water,
discrimination, labor exploitation, and other stuff that evil colonizers do.
>please do not write back about when someone writes something
>ubsered he has freedom of speech because i refuse to believe there words that
>can be said to you that if it was someone right infront of you
>you'd consider attacking them because he insulted you this much, if thats true,
>you are simply not human.. it's a GENETIC mechanism.
I didn't say one shouldn't be UPSET when s/he hears something s/he doesn't
like, however horrible. What I said is that that someone OUGHT to have the
right to say it. Period. Be it Faurisson or Sharon. Afterall the Palestinians
have been hearing for decades the DENIAL OF THEIR HOLOCAUST by Israel and the
majority of Western media outlet. (The interesting part is when they naturally
got upset, the media showed that as a sign of their genetic violence!) Second,
if you want someone to filter for you when others express their freedom of
speech, then how do you trust that someone in his ability to filter what must
be filtered and mustn't? Shouldn't YOU be the judge of that, of ignoring
"dumb" speech and listening to the "intelligent" part? I don't want anyone to
filter anything for me. I will decide for myself what to filter out/in.
>Also, although you are very thoroug, I feel i must highlight the fact that
>your analysis is based on an obsession rather than a full realistic political
>analysis..
What's wrong with being obsessed with truth and justice, after seeing reality
so distorted and twisted around? I am obsessed -- with ending the abhorent
human rights violation by Israel. Being "obsessed" and providing "full
realistic political analysis" are not mutually exclusive. One can still do
both, as I think I have.
On the one-sidedness and twisting of facts of this site:
I said this, probably, a 100 times (eg, see the first letter of 25 October
above). I will though say it again (and again). What I have in this site ARE
facts. The reason you see them as leading to an opposite conclusion has to do
with your mindset/and ideological frame of mind which is affected by your
background, experience, environment and the sources of your news. I have made
sure to read Ha'aretz almost daily, and sometimes the Jerusalem post, Ameircan
Jewish press (mostly JTA), and Israelwire.com. For AMPLE detail on this issue,
look through this feedback page. Most recently, the LONG Otober 17 response
(above).
In conclusion, please read a new article that I just saw in the Globe and
Mail paper, by clicking here.
Best,
Sam
8 Oct 2000
SAM: I recently gave you a feeback mentioning Judge Cristol, who
travelled to Israel about 15 times and was wined-and-dined by Israeli
high-muckity-mucks whilst he was working on his thesis about the
Liberty. That was in response to I don't know what, because I can't
find Cristol's name anywhere in the feedback now. I must have seen
the comments re Cristol somewhere else. Think it appropriate just
to deep-six the feedback comments. Thanks,
John Gidusko
gidusko@iag.net
7 Oct 2000
Sam: I must congratulate you on the 'Israel and the U.S. Interest'
web page. I find it fantastic, and as far as the Liberty massacre is
concerned, accurate! I am totally amazed at the amount of work that
went into that page. I do have a comment regarding Judge Cristol's
thesis expounding the Israeli version of the massacre. Cristol has
made something like 15 trips to Israel during the time he was
compiling his thesis, where he was wined-and-dined with high muckety-
mucks there. His thesis isn't worth the paper it is printed on. He
has NOT gotten a story from the Liberty survivors... and I think it
is possible he is a paid hack of Israel... along with Mike Weeks --
both are traitors to their country in my opinion!
I can add nothing more than Jim Ennes and Joe Meadors have already
added in their feedback. I thank you for telling it as it is!
John Gidusko
LT USN (ret)
gidusko@iag.net
(It is not necessary for you to print the above in your feedback page,
however, if you do, I have no objection to my name and email address
appearing.)
_ I'll tell you the truth about the USS LIBERTY, visit
(.<
_)W) http://www.iag.net/~gidusko/liberty/
>/^^
13 Oct 2000
FUCK U ALL U FUCKEN ARABS.
U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SITUATION IN ISRAEL.
COME TO ISRAEL AND TRY TO LIVE HERE IF U DARE!!!!!!!
U R JUST A GROUP OF STUPID MEN AND FUCK YOUR WIVES ALL DAY LONG
13 Oct 2000
i think you shoul learn from the israeli democracy and their
freedom of speech and opinions
and to stop the hatred
Indeed Arab countries SHOULD learn from Israeli democracy and freedom of
speech. I am not sure, though, I would want anyone to learn from the
discrimination-against-non-Jewish-citizens part, and the maintaining of
a brutal occupation part, and the theft of land, confiscation of houses,
theft of water, torture, curfews, etc, all institutionalized parts of
Israeli "democracy". Perhaps it is this component of Israeli "democracy"
that has generate "the hatred"!
Sam
12 Oct 2000
Bravo, it is high time true information is disseminated about the
unjust treatment of Palastinians. How long will we wait for Americans
to realize the unjustice which exists? How many more decades will pass
while Palastinians are pushed away into "camps" while the Israelis are
living out their "just" lives of freedrom and retribution on land
which is not rightfully theirs?
How long, I ask will the scales balance with bodies of
Palastinians weighted to the ground? How long indeed, until the Zionists,
Israelis, and Blind Americans realize that "Israel" is simply another
version of cruel selfishness!
Thank you sir/madam. --Sam
12 Oct 2000
I dont want to talk a lot bacause i think i can sum up all my words in one small
sentence .
This is by far the best arabic site in the world.
Thank you
Abdulrahman AL-J....
Awefully sweet of you, Mr. Abdulrahman. Thank you sir. --Sam
12 Oct 2000
Hello,
My name is Yoav and i am a israeli zionist, and all i wanted to say is you got
all the idea about zionizm worng!
Zionizm is what we call our national fellings about our country - israel, and
about all the jewish people around the world.
Zionizm dosn't have to clash with the palistians right of living in thair
country - israel. Any of those things that you call "zionist attack" are a
RESPONSE to attacks made by arabs or any other nation.
We belive in our right to live in peace in our country and to feel safe walking
in our streets. The lebanese occupation of israel was made because of terrist
attacks that were constant in the region and that took a lot of israeli lifes.
The latest attack on the palestinian cities of israel were made because of the
cold blooded killing of israeli soliders. When we kill a palestinian it is
usually for self defance purposes only! Yea, you can ask me what about the kids
that we killed, well, some were killed either by tenzim and israeli corss-fire
and some what killed when the israeli soliders were shootig in to the mob,
imagine you were five soliders and a mob of 5,000 angry people came on you,
would you have a choice?
please common on the things i told you,
yomaster@surfree.co.il
Read this feedback page for answers to many questions similar to yours.
As for Zionism, well, check, among many, the response dated 26 September
on this page as well as the mission statement.
>We belive in our right to live in peace in our country and to feel safe walking
>in our streets.
Palestinian have a similar "belief", or wish rather. But they are occupied
and oppressed -- BY Israel and Zionism.
>The lebanese occupation of israel was made because of terrist
>attacks that were constant in the region and that took a lot of israeli lifes.
Wrong! Check the record. Hizbollah came into existence AFTER Israel killed
20,000 Lebanese/Palestinians, mostly civilians, in 1982. Not meaning to belittle
the dead, but looking at the number of Israeli dead, what you call "a lot", by
cross border shelling I presurme, is instructive. According to the IDF website,
from 1985-1998, about one dozen Israeli civilians were killed by cross-border
shelling by Hizbollah. Note though, that Hizbollah shelling was almost always
preceded by Israeli shelling of Lebanon that killed/wounded many And when there
is quietness on the border, Israel initiates violence by attacking a hizbollah
leader or a site, claiming "self-defense", and killing someone. If you and
most Israelis buy into that, then now we know why peace in the region is far
off in the future.
Also, the total number of Israeli dead from ALL Palestinian terrorism from
1970s on, COMBINED WITH, ALL the cross border shelling, comes to about less than
one HALF of what sharon massacred in one of his adventures at Sabra and Shatila!
(I am getting this info form an Israeli right wing site, called IRIS, by the way)
Does this give you a hint about the disparity of the conflict and killing?
Perhaps it tells you that your leadership has been exaggerating things "a bit"
to make you become emotional and supportive of their brutality?
>The latest attack on the palestinian cities of israel were made because of the
>cold blooded killing of israeli soliders. When we kill a palestinian it is
>usually for self defance purposes only! Yea, you can ask me what about the kids
>that we killed, well, some were killed either by tenzim and israeli corss-fire
>and some what killed when the israeli soliders were shootig in to the mob,
>imagine you were five soliders and a mob of 5,000 angry people came on you,
>would you have a choice?
First, several dozens of Palestinians were already killed by Israeli soldiers
before the two soldiers "took the wrong turn". When the Palestinians threw
rocks, immediately the killing began, before the Palestinian police started
shooting.
Bottom line is, (as Ralph Nader noted): Palestinian rocks can't reach Israel's
proper. WHAT ARE THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS DOING ON PALESTINIAN LAND??? And the
two Israeli soldiers that were killed, anyone who has a clue what goes on in
the WB, knows that there is no way in hell for two Israeli soldiers to just
"take the wrong turn", without going through an Israeli checkpoint that
surround Palestinian towns. The event is deplorable, but what do you expect
when you oppress people for decades, and then try to send undercover assassins
among them. Look at the picture of the soldiers when the mob reached the
soldiers (go to http://www.usatoday.com/gallery/mideast/contenttemplate8.htm):
you will see that one of the soldiers, when caught, was wearing a keffieh,
Palestinian male head-cover! Israeli undercover
assassination squads are notorious in the West Bank, sent by Israel to
carry out a killing here or there. Like a botched attempt a short while ago,
when three Israeli soldiers got killed by friendly fire. These squads (known
as Duvdevan) were condemned by human right organizations and possibly by
the US State Department. Plus, the bombing of civilian towns, as in Ramallah
and Beit Jala, is A WAR CRIME, whether someone killed two or more of your
soldiers. Also, what are Israeli snipers/sharp shooters doing among the "poor"
Israeli troops? Perhaps to shoot some "cross fire"?
Read a shocking article about how stone throwers, many of them kids, are
being killed deliberately by snipers with silencers Here.
In their racism of claiming that Palestinian parents throw their kids to
be killed, to their brutality, Israeli leadership is becoming closer and
closer a reincarnation of Nazi leaders. And you, the Israelis, becomeing
like the Germans who are watching.
Shame!
You want to resolve the issue there are two things Israel must do: withdraw from
the WB and Gaza, fully, and allow the refugees to return.
Sam
12 Oct 2000
Happy to hear that your disgusting hateful site is soon to be dismantled!
Where did you hear that? --Sam
11 Oct 2000
I have an idea! Why dosen`t saddam hussain step down from his rule?
After all it would end the sanctions. I mean if he really gave a damn about his
people. What a joke!
Bingo! It is exactly because he's a murderer who DOESN'T care about his people
--as much as he cares about his survival-- that he wouldn't step down. Now,
let's here the real "joke": knowing that Saddam's killer, as the US governmnet
does, why doesn't it remove the sanctions, or at least the economical portion of
these, and stop the people from dying, or from providing Saddam the pretext of
letting them die? (Hint: think!)
Sam
11 Oct 2000
inal abook ya kalb
[Insult in Arabic --Sam]
11 Oct 2000
Hi,
I see that you are an intelgent man.
I read your webpage and was very dissapinted from it.
There is a lot of truth in it, truth that the israrli media isn't afraif of
showing and critecize it's own leaders when necessary, but also a lot of
untruth.
For example you have a picture of an israeli soldier hold a dead baby and under
it you say how the baby died from the israel brotality and such... while in fact
this is a turken baby which died in an earthquick in turkey, and the soldiers is
on of the many people israel govrement sent to help rescue people which were
covered under the distroyed buildings.
You also say that this webpage is made to show the other side, side I have seen
from myself many times, but you completly ignore the hurt of israel. people that
don't know a lot about the subject go throw a complete brainwash here.
You talk about democracy and in the same breath sais all jews should go away
from Israel. you say how we should leave this country and then how we should
co-exist with the palestinens.
to other people who sais similar things you answer in things like: "you are the
brainwashed one" or "right lies, but who's lying?"
so I have to say to you: you are wrong.
your info is lacking and ignore the suffer of the other side. I am not against
arabs and I want co-existing. I think this is a good webpage if you come here to
read about how all israelis are monsters.
but it should be a webpage that teaches about the truth, and it does but maybe
30% of it. or you don't know all the facts or you simplely try to convince other
people by your avidance and big words to believe in what you believe.
I ask ask you to publish this message. if you answer it plz do not do so by
saying something like "you are wrong", because I'm not. you are not wrong either
(maybe a little, but who isn't?), but you simplely ignore facts, writing over
only what you thing can show what you want to show. at least put a page that
explain the israeli sides, and remember to include the thousends of avidance for
arab terroriem and jewish suffer in israel. I want peace, and I believe you want
peace too, only you want it only in your way. which is infact, the wrong way
because it isn't the way of co-existens.
and onw last thing, encourge fighting isn't a very democart thing to do, and
don't say that "they attack us" thing because that just lying to yourself, you
can't say you want peace but they have to do it your way and stop to defent
themselves.
peace out.
Erez, a 15 years old boy from Israel who like playing his comp reading books
hang out of his friends and really don't want to leave his home from someone who
hate him, but don't mind sharing it.
>There is a lot of truth in it, truth that the israrli media isn't afraif of
>showing and critecize it's own leaders when necessary, but also a lot of
>untruth.
I have great respect for some of the Israeli media, more so than I do
the American, with its clear bias for Israel.
>For example you have a picture of an israeli soldier hold a dead baby and under
>it you say how the baby died from the israel brotality and such... while in fact
>this is a turken baby which died in an earthquick in turkey, and the soldiers is
>on of the many people israel govrement sent to help rescue people which were
>covered under the distroyed buildings.
Had you checked this site a long time ago, way before the Turkey earthquake,
you would have still found that picture there!
As for the one-sidedness of this site, make a search for the word "bias"
on this feedback page for countless responses to questions like yours.
Sam
11 Oct 2000
you are animals .
whenever you are talking about human right think first about ron arad.
the way of kiling and teror is infantil and hopeless
do not try to act like intelegent people . you are fanatic and dangures
to this regin and to the world
get lost
i wish you to have suffer as you did to us.
>i wish you to have suffer as you did to us.
Hmmm! It would actually be EXTREMELY instructive for the Israelis to exchange,
even for a very short period, their suffering at the hands of the enemy, with
that of the Palestinians/Arabs.
Sam
11 Oct 2000
Attach is a virus file
You have to format the computer.
Happy Holloween! Booo! --Sam
10 Oct 2000
first of all - if you will not shoot from sevilians home, they wont
get hurt. second - you must compremize. use your hads for a change and not your
straingth. when you kill as you allso kill your selves. we are not that bad we
can live together, and i say it with all the anger i have in me towars you, but
i don't go and shoot people , un like you do.
This exemplifies the naivete of many Israelis. You MUST get educated about
the issues, before you seek peace. Start with this feedback page with
countless answers to exactly the same questions you raised.
Sam
10 Oct 2000
My name is Erez and I come from Israel.
It seems that the world you describes here and the world I know are quite
diffrent.
In my world my grandparents came here after they were putten in death camps
where most of their family and friends were killed.
In my world my family and friends fought to protect themselves from terror and
hate.
In my world I want to live in peace and as good as I can.
In my world our leaders (most of them) want peace.
I saw some of the site's pictures, pictures I saw before.
I saw them before because our media isn't afraid of showing us the all truth as
it is. I saw dead children and I saw familes that will never be the same. Only I
saw it on both sides.
I don't know who has the right to live here, and I don't think this is the
issue.
The fact is that we are here and you are too.
I was born here and as much as it considers me this is my home.
I really don't care about palestinens or jaws, or about the people who wants war
on both sides. All that I know is that this is where I live and where I intend
to live for the rest of my life. I only wish that you could live here with me,
in peace.
Because I don't care what happend 100 years ago (my familly was here then too
but it doesn't matter), or even 500 years ago (same thing).
I see teenagers burning tiers in hevron and in Rhamalla.
And then I see the same thing in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem.
I can't do anything about fear or or hate of other people, but I can see in my
own eyes what's going on.
And when a jaw is walking in the street and got shot by an arab it ain't good.
and when an arab kid dies while his people fighting ours, it ain't good either.
And when people go to war, in any sitution, or any condition, well, it ain't
good either.
I don't believe in war and I don't think I'm better then anyone or that anyone
is better then me.
All I want is to live my life in peace.If I can do it with you with me it will
only be better. because I'll know we went over our diffrennces, that we can look
behind race or religion.
And the only fool to me is the one who held a stone to throw, or the one who
shot when there is other choice. and there is always another choice. always.
Ytbarech Hasem Vetitbarchu Gam Atem.
Read this feedback page for answers to the issues you raised, which are
the same ones raised over and over and over and over. In short, Israel
was born in sin, against the Palestinians. Whether you survived the holocaust
or not, nothing justifies what Israel did to the Palestinian, from dispossession
to death. Not only you, but Palestinians (actually everyone in the world)
too want peace. But peace that is based on Apartheid, as Israel's "peace"
proved to be recently, then the Palestinians will, naturally choose death
over slavery and apartheid. Palestinians are not mere fools to throw rocks
at the risk of dying. They are desperate. They are humiliated and
dispossessed, living in little crowded shacks, while holding on to a deed
and keys to a house in Haifa that is today inhabitted by some Russian Jew,
who says the house is his. If you don't UNDERSTAND that this sad situation is
at the root of the present "violent" behavior of the Palestinians --and hence
lack of peace-- then maybe you should question the basis of the peace you
are envisioning.
Sam
10 Oct 2000
such animals you are! killing israli peaple and than going to cry to the whole
world how missirable you are...shame on you murderers...
ayelet/ israe/
10 Oct 2000
FUCK YOU FUCKING MUSLEMS
10 Oct 2000
Free RON ARAD!
Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON
ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free RON ARAD!Free
[... redundant submission clipped]
9 Oct 2000
You want to fight, you want to kill as much as Isralians do. Both Isralians and
Palestinians are stupid and foolish bugs with no mind, no soul. STOP THE WAR.
PR. From Russia, Sankt-Peterburg.
Before you ask "us" to "stop the war" --parroting your leaders-- stop your ignorance
of the situation, and look for the causes. Then you'll know how the "war" can be
stopped. --Sam
9 Oct 2000
good job with re-writing history
Thanks! I am re-writing the "history" most Israelis and her supporters have
been raised in. Didn't mean to spoil the tales of "heroism" and myths of
"purity of arms", etc.
Sam
9 Oct 2000
do you know what the israeli arabs did in 1934?
9 Oct 2000
my name is nadav and i am from tel aviv, israel in israel
i want to say that i agree - gaza streep and west bank should be returned but:
i do not agree that a fanatic terorists organization supports human rights (ron
arad - i know his family and belive me - they are suffering). and about the
media - the only one who gets the support is hezbollah. we gave them back all of
south lebanon but just yesterday they kidnapped 3 troops and why? because they
are anti israli teror organization.
>i want to say that i agree - gaza streep and west bank should be returned but:
>i do not agree that a fanatic terorists organization supports human rights (ron
>arad..
Ditto on both points. But, the famous saying goes: "if you want peace work for justice".
After all, Genkis Khan wanted peace. The question always is, "On who's terms?"
Terrorist acts are deplorabe, but explainable when contextualized. You must look
at how a Palestinian "lives" his life under the humiliating Israeli occupation.
Israel's has NOT agreed to give back ALL the WB and Gaza, nor allow return of
refugees/compensation. That is the root to the terrorism that Israel faces,
which is minuscule compared to the terrorism Arabs have faced/face today at the
hands of Israel. One note: when "terrorism" is committed against a group
that is occupying another's land, inside that land, then that is NOT terrorism.
That's rightful resistance to occupation. Anything Hizbollah does against Israeli
soldiers inside Lebanon, or the Palestinians inside WB or Gaza, is NOT terrorism.
So, Ron Arad's disappearance has nothing to do with terrorism, not Arab anyway.
WHAT WAS ARAD DOING OVER LEBANON, BEFORE HE DISAPPEARED? One may feel sorry
for him, because he is a victim of his government's belligerent policies. If
numbers indicate anything, then there countless countless Palestinians and
Lebanese "Ron Arads" kidnapped/massacred by Israel.
>media - the only one who gets the support is hezbollah. we gave them back all
>of south lebanon but just yesterday they kidnapped 3 troops and why? because
>they are anti israli teror organization.
First, "you" didn't give them back South Lebanon -- THEY TOOK IT BACK!
Second, Israel maintains about 20 Lebanese hostages, for many long years.
Hizbollah asked to free these in return for the three soldiers. Anything
wrong with that, especially noting that Israel calls the hostages it keeps
"bargaining chips"?
Remember that throughout history, governments always justified their aggression
as "self defense" and labelled the victims who resisted the aggression as
"terrorists". Don't fall for that trap, even if it is your government that
is claiming "self defense". Always be suspicious when someone tells you that
Hizbollah or Palestinians kill themselves in terrorist acts just because they
enjoy it, or simply because they want to bother the Israelis. It takes a lot
of suffering and misery for a person to reach the stage of deciding to kill
himself. Look for the root cause of things so you can make the future Israeli
Arad mothers and thousands of "enemy" mothers weep no longer. The solution
is in the hands of the Israel -- your government. Implement UN Res 242 and
194, is the solution in the least amount of words!
Sam
9 Oct 2000
Hey Moe,
You sure can create a web site but now you need to develop a brain. You arabs
have a problem with reality. You can not seem to make sense out of anything
except that you people are always right. You can not face the fact that you are
all loosers. Like children who never learned to think on their own. I feel sorry
for you because you will spend your lives blaming everyone for your own
failings. There is not one democratic arab country. That is because you need
dictators to always lead you.
I am not sure if your parents should be blamed ot if it is your religion that
seems to teach hatred. Any religion that endorses cutting off hands or heads,
stabbing in the back, etc. can not be counted on to produce viable human beings.
Aside from racist insults, the crux of your arguments has been responded to
countless times on this page in similar messages. --Sam
8 Oct 2000
fuck you mother fuckers you are just a groop of criminals and
merderers.
8 Oct 2000
You fuckers!!!!!
Don't you ashmed on yourselfs???
Don't you remember all the bombs inside Tel-Aviv that killed 200 people?!
Fuck you!!
8 Oct 2000
ALL THE ARABS ARE FUCKING BITCH
7 Oct 2000
Shut up!
You dammn Islamic Fanatics... We want peace but some of you dumbasses had to
spoil it and destroy the chance for peace for jews and arabs!
do yourselfs and the entire world a big favour and...
S H U T U P ! ! !
7 Oct 2000
DEATH TO ARABS
KILL EM ALL
7 Oct 2000
you make me smile
your site is so full of crap i cant stop laughing lol
Smiling is sometimes a way to hide tears. -- Sam
6 Oct 2000
This is a message to all the Jews who support the state of Israel and Zionism:
(This message applies to them only, we know for a fact that there are some Jews
who are against all of what is going on)
We Muslims think that what you Jews are doing is very wrong.
[... rest of post clipped.] Sorry, but this isn't a forum for announcements
and proclamations --Sam
5 Oct 2000
fuck you anti semite shits!
Israel for the Jews
death to our enemies
Define anti-Semite! One thing an anti-Semite is NOT, is someone who despises
Israeli government policies towards the Palestinians and Arabs. Israel might
be for the Jews, but the converse is NOT true. Many Jews have rejected
Israel's representation and policies.
Sam
4 Oct 2000
once again, god bless you. your cause is noble and the effort applauded. it's
interesting that the visitors you are attracting here exactly mirror what is out
there:
1- pro arab views (mostly arab) here to express frustration and anger. nothing
changes, this is what we excell at.
2- pro israeli views (mostly israeli and blinded westerners) here to challenge
the facts you are so beautiful exposing / displaying.
what is interesting in some of these messages is the continuous deliberate
effort to (1) divide the arabs (muslims versus christians, lebaneses versus
palestinians and so forth) and to (2) portray their action / behavior as the
reason behind what's going on down there.
let me first express my utmost respect to all the kids fighting the israeli army
in jerusalem. these are the true heroes in the battle for justice.
unfortunately, they are the real victims too. the world may never see or feel
what is going on, and that is ok. these kids will get justice, and they are not
counting on anyone's help to get what is rightfully theirs.
the safari type of killing (helicopters and tanks on stone throwers) is not only
unjustified but grossly ridiculous as well. arafat should step aside. let these
people who have nothing more to lose go at it for the last time.
there is nothing more to lose - everything else to gain. the palestinians who
stayed behind are facing these unjustices on their own (the rest have been
thrown out of their homes / country and are scattered around the world). god
bless these kids !! they are truelly an inspiration to me.
sam
3 Oct 2000
SAM -
It simply appears that when the subject is the Liberty incident, you have not
gone upon anything which doesn't originate with Jim Ennes. Had you taken the
time to really look over all those referenced sites and books, except for Alfred
Lilienthal's 1978 book, they are all based on what Ennes has written. I've seen
all, plus dozens more, of the material you state as reference. What you haven't
seen is the material which was generated by the survivors themselves back when
the event had taken place (i.e., the "other side" as you claim.) It appears you
wish to believe that the Liberty survivors, as represented by Ennes and Joe
Meadors as only two examples, have had their ever-changing memories get better
over time.
....
[rest of large post clipped]
This is getting really beyond the scope of this feedback page. The
detail you provide are excellent and thorough. But this only tells me that
there are two versions of events: one by the Liberty survivors --current or
past version, however you want to label it-- and another by "John Weeks".
I chose the survivors', mainly because they were there, and because their
version was adobted by the Washington Report and many reporters and some
high US officials. I would be interested to see the previous versions
you mention, if you have a link.
(This is the last input by you I will post on this feedback page.)
Sam
3 Oct 2000
Dear Sam,
I am writing to commend you on this page to which I have linked from my links
page. I am grateful that there is anti-Zionist information which is not
anti-Jewish racism, which I detest and think is as evil as Zionist racism. I
wish you the best in all your endeavours and your comprehensive webpages.
Sincerely,
Tarik Abdul-*****
3 Oct 2000
URGENT !!!
PERSONAL INFO:M.B.A. STUDENT, E-MAIL ADRESS :
HELLOW SAM ! HOW ARE YOU DOING ?
I AM AN ISRAELI STUDENT, I CURRENTLY WORK ON MY THESES, DEALING WITH THE
HIZBOLLAH ORGANIZATION. FIRST, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THE GREAT SOURCE OF
INFORMATION. SECOND , I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOUR OPINION, AS AN EXPERT AND ALSO
AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF "THE OTHER SIDE", ABOUT THE FOLLOWING ISSUES :
AFTER THE ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL FROM SOUTH LEBANON:
1.DO YOU THINK THAT THE MAIN GOALS OF HIZBOLLAH ORGANIZATION WERE ACHIEVED ?
2.WILL THE ISLAMIC RESISTANCE/HIZBOLLAH CONTINUE IT'S MILITARY ACTIVITY AGAINST
ISRAEL ?
3.DO YOU THINK THAT HIZBOLLAH WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST ? IF THE ANSWER IS YES ,
WHAT WILL BE
IT'S MAIN GOALS FOR THE FUTURE ?
I WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR SEARIOUS COMMENT, THANKS AGAIN, YAIR
[A NOTE FROM SAM: A friend of mine, known here as Gottfried,
will respond to this message. --Sam]
Hello Yair,
Sorry not to have treated your answer earlier, but the events in
Palestine, in Israel and in South Lebanon, apart from keeping us busy,
made it necessary to update the answers to your questions.
First, let me start by thanking you for describing the site as a
"great source of information". We certainly appreciate the way you see
it as our main objective is, indeed, information.
Second, it is necessary to point out that although the "exepertise" is
a flattering description, we are not necessarily representative of
Hizbollah. This seems important to mention as neither Sam nor any
other person participating in the present site is a member of
Hizbollah. Rather, the following answers are based on data,
observation and analysis of Hizbollah's quotes and acts.
1.DO YOU THINK THAT THE MAIN GOALS OF HIZBOLLAH ORGANIZATION WERE
ACHIEVED ?
What happened in South Lebanon is, undeniably, a political victory for
Hizbollah. The main goal that the party had set for itself - the
liberation of South Lebanon - is almost completely achieved, indeed.
The reason for this "almost completely" is that Hizbollah and the
Lebanese government do not consider South Lebanon completely liberated
- the complex issue of the Shebaa farms (also referred to as "the
Shebaa hamlets") has yet to be solved as the farms are still under
IDF control.
As you probably know, Israel occupied these farms in the Six Day War
in 1967 during the attack on Syria. Lebanon did not participate in
that war. Thus, Israel considers the farms as land which should be
given back to SYRIA, not to Lebanon, in the framework of a future
agreement concerning the Golan Heights. However, Lebanon recently
produced maps drawn by the French mandate authorities in 1923 showing
the farms as part of the then newly founded Lebanese state. The Syrian
government agrees with Lebanon on this subject, and thus does not
consider the farms as Syrian land. Consequently, Hizbollah claims that
it will struggle further until these farms are liberated and returned
to Lebanon. This explains Hizbollah's choice of the Shebaa farms for
its recent operation during which Hizbollah fighters captured three
Israeli soldiers.
However, another of Hizbollah's main goals was completely achieved in
parallel with the liberation - that of becoming a party active in
Lebanon's political and civil life. Hizbollah has a solid social
infrastructure (schools, medical centres, charity...) in South Lebanon
as well as deputees in Beirut. The September legislative elections
sealed Hizbollah's tranformation from an "organisation", as your
message describes it, into a fully-fledged political party. This was
the consequence of two long term Hizbollah actions carried out over
the past ten years in parallel with the military resistance:
- The building of the party's social infrastructure.
- The transformation of the movement itself from the spin-off of an
Iranian movement into a Lebanese party with a great deal of autonomy
vis-a-vis Iran.
2.WILL THE ISLAMIC RESISTANCE/HIZBOLLAH CONTINUE IT'S MILITARY ACTIVITY AGAINST
ISRAEL ?
The party (which, incidentally, tries to define itself as the core of
a national resistance, not "islamic" resistance) recently answered
that question through two operations: the Shebaa operation and the
capturing of a former Israel colonel after having lured him into
Lebanon. Clearly the Hizbollah will continue its military action until
the liberation of the farms and beyond that, if necessary, until all
Lebanese prisoners (the so-called "bargaining chips") in Israel are freed.
However, Hizbollah doesn't want the situation to degenerate into a war
between Israel and Lebanon. Consequently, it is very unlikely that the
party guerillas attack Israeli villages... unless in retaliation to
Israeli direct attacks on civilians.
3.DO YOU THINK THAT HIZBOLLAH WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST ? IF THE ANSWER
IS YES, WHAT WILL BE IT'S MAIN GOALS FOR THE FUTURE ?
The way Hizbollah organised its infrastructure clearly shows that the
party considers that it is here to stay in peacetime. The conversion
to civilian activities is already under way. The main goals for the
future are not very clear. Obviously, there is a lot of work at hand
in order to improve the living conditions and the reconstruction of
Southern Lebanon. Also, in a "multiconfessional" country like Lebanon,
where the intersection between the political and the religious is
still important, Hizbollah has a role to play in defending the
interests of the Shia commnity, relatively the largest religious group
in the country. Amal has lost much of its influence within the
community, and Hizbollah emerges as the main representative of the Shia.
As for "exporting the Iranian revolution" or "the establishing of an
Islamic state", part of the Hizbollah rhetoric in the eighties, they
seem to be definitely buried. Hizbollah will, of course, continue to
have a religious rhetroric along its national discourse; it will
continue to be led by the clergy, and its infrastructure will still be
largely, but not completely, religious. However, Hizbollah seems to
acknowledge that any dreams of an Islamic state is incompatible with
the multi-religious nature of Lebanon. Hence Hizbollah's insistance,
in many speeches by Sheikh Hassan Hasrallah, on the national identity
of the resistance, and hence Hizbollah's willingness to avoid direct
negotiations with Israel and the US for an exchange of prisoners and
hostages - in fact, Sheikh Nasrallah handed the matter over to the
Lebanese government after having captured the former Israeil colonel,
apologizing to the Lebanese prime minister because he is going to
receive a lot of phone calles from Madeleine Albright!!!
I hope this will answer your questions, Yair. Best wishes for your
thesis. If we can be of help, don't hesitate to send us your questions.
Gottfried
26 Sep 2000
My good man-seeing as you challenge a couple of points in my feedback (posted a
short time ago), I feel the need to respond to one or two of your, ahem,
rebuttals. I know that this is bound to be a futile exercise that's unlikely to
assuage your intense hatred towards Israel-but civility has gotten the better of
me.
Your first riposte: "Where did you see the mention of a US
that's in the hand of a Jewish clique?" Nice diversion, but not particularly
effective. To paraphrase Martin Luther King and Alain Finkelkraut, Anti-Semitism
and Anti-Zionism are two sides of the same coin, with the former posing as the
"intellectually respectable" form of the latter. Blatant anti-Semites see Jewish
cliques everywhere more subtle anti-Semites and self-hating Jews like to point
an accusing finger at the "Zionist lobby" in every walk of life. An example of
the former is the Catholic bigot Joseph Sobran, whose articles you've
incorporated on this site the latter include such luminaries as Grace Halsell,
Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak, who also figure prominently. Which brings me to
your "gratitude to...God-sent Jews like Chomsky, Finkelstein, Shahak" et al. Of
course they're God-sent: they say what Sobran, Buchanan and their ilk say,
except that they're Jewish, and therefore supposedly !
objective. Perhaps I should point out that Shahak, a fringe figure at best, is
the author of "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: the Weight of 3,000 Years", a
book which revives the ancient sport of Talmud-distortion and lists alleged
anti-Gentile atrocities by Jewry throughout the ages (footnotes strangely
absent). The French edition of this tract was released in 1996 by La Vieille
Taupe, the "Holocaust revionist" publishing house, with a recommendation by one
Noam Chomsky (contributing a foreword was one Edward Said, but let's leave that
for the time being). Need I say more? Perhaps I should point out Noam Chomsky's
links to "holocaust revisionists" such as Robert Faurisson? Or the fact that
Finkelstein's writings are available from various revisionist websites? These,
then, are your God-sent Jews. 'Nuff said.
Point two: on Lebanon, your statement about Israel, the SLA, the Maronites
etc. It's quite humorous that you infer that I only consider those who "slave
for Israel" true Lebanese. How do you arrive at the conclusion that (i) I don't
disapprove of the manner in which many SLA members have been, at times,
treated,(ii) that I'm a carbon copy of Begin (who was dropped by Gemayel rather
than vice-versa, by the way), and (iii) that my sympathy for the Maronites is
purely self-serving (I happen to be familiar with the story of the village of
Damour and its destruction by the PLO)? That's somewhat presumptuous, don't you
think? As for the SLA men and their supposed en-bloc return to Syria (I mean
Lebanon), to the best of my knowledge, most of them are still in Israel. Oh, and
those SLA members who requested asylum in Germany did so of their own free will.
Point three:On the status of minorities in the Arab world, your personal
decision to live far away from the Middle East in the Zionist-dominated West,
Israel's intransigence in pointing out the sorry state of the Middle East etc.
I'm sure you've never experienced Muslim discrimination. Soon, few Christian
Arabs will: they're emigrating en masse to better climes, where some settle in
to a receptive society (need I point to Carlos Menem in Argentina and Edward
Seaga in Jamaica?) and others, such as Edward Said and James Zogby, continue to
attest to the good will of their Muslim brethren far, far away, as well as the
justness of assorted Ba'athists, despots and fundamentalists. They do so from
the decadent West where they have consciously chosen to settle (as have you-I
believe you mentioned freedom of speech, which is telling), and from where they
insist that it's only a minority of Muslims who discriminate etc. Of course it's
only a minority, and of course all Arabs are !
brothers You don't really expect me to believe this bunkum, do you? And, more
pertinently, do you seriously expect us Jews, who've experienced Arab racism and
violence firsthand, from Baghdad to Casablanca, to simply accede to demands that
we reduce ourselves to dhimmis in an Arab-Muslim polity?
Point Four: "I can't understand the link between the Ha'aretz section
of society and the rest of us who just want to be left alone". It's quite simple
really: There is a section of Israel's elite, represented by Ha'aretz, which
will go to extreme lenghts to convince itself of the Arabs' just intentions, who
will do anything to justify any Arab act of violence, from the murder of 65-year
old wheelchair-bound Leon Klinghoffer aboard the Achille Lauro to Edward Said's
recent brave act of rock-throwing at the Fatma Gate to any number of stabbings
and car bombings. The rest of us, however, have no desire to be led like lambs
to the slaughter by an Arab world which will always find an excuse for violence
against Jews.
Final point: You're quite wrong. I don't use the sorry state the Arab
world has caused itself to be in to justify Israel's supposed intransigence.
Rather, it serves as a reminder of what would happen if we, the Jews, were to
follow Arab dictates, and trust countries such as Iraq (obviously one of your
favourites), where thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms in the 40's which
made Deir Yassin look like Disney World (followed, by the way, by the
confiscation of all Jewish property-shades of the supposed tragedy of the
Palestinians?). See how Syria, Iraq, et al persecute their own citizens, and how
they persecuted the Jews in the past. That's exactly how they'd treat us, and
the supposed tragedy of the Palestinians is merely an excuse. Until the Arab
world undergoes democratisation and liberalisation, we Jews, irrespective of our
actions, will never be able to live in peace in the Middle East
All the Best
NB If you decide to publish this letter, please do so integrally.
=====
Response
(Noting the limited resources and memory space, this second feedback is the last one
of yours I will post/respond to.)
>To paraphrase Martin Luther King and Alain Finkelkraut, Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism
>are two sides of the same coin, with the former posing as the "intellectually
>respectable" form of the latter.
You have fallen prey to Zionist propaganda, such as that disseminated by the ADL, to
silence critics of Zionism. The use of the word "Jewish" to replace "Zionist", by
many "Jewish" publications and organizations has helped confuse the issue further.
These create the illusion that Zionist and Jewish interests as one and the same --
that all Jews are/should be supporters of Israel. For example, I went browsing and
checked the "Jewish" World Review (www.jewishworldreview.com). Everything there is
extremely Zionist, or pro-Israel. The same for countless other "Jewish" publications,
where criticism of Zionism and Israel is a taboo.
Whether you analyze it "subtly" or otherwise, Judaism and Zionism are two different
ideologies, although the latter is somewhat based on the former. Judaism is a religion;
Zionism is a political, secular movement that saw Jews as a nation, and the land where
Palestinians lived as THEIR (the Zionists') homeland, where they would establish a
"Jewish state". The difference is clear. Furthermore, Orthodox Judaism sees Zionism
--political control of the land of Israel before the arrival of the Messiah-- as a
heresy.
Naturally, not all Jews feel they belong to the "nation of Israel", but only to their
respective countries. Aside from religion, there isn't much in common between a
Russian and an Ethiopian Jew, anymore than exists between a Russian and an Ethiopian
non-Jew. Perhaps the only thing of mutual interest between Russian and Ethiopian Jews
who emigrated to Israel, especially recently, is their search for a better life
ECONOMICALLY, not necessarily because of discrimination.
Obviously Martin Luther King and Mr. Finkelkraut either didn't know much about the obvious
difference between Zionism and Judaism, or are deliberately confusing the issues. Equating
anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism (and more implicitely, Zionism and Judaism) has been the
goal of many Zionist organizations, such as, again, the ADL, in order to shield Israel from
criticism, using the same immunity available for Judaism as a religion. By calling Israel's
and Zionism's critics "anti-Semites", the hope is to silence their legitimate criticisms,
restrain the freedom of speech of others, and plant fear of being labeled anti-Semite, in
the hearts of those who think of speaking out against the tenets of Zionism -- Jewish
nationhood and/or the usurpation of a land from its indigenous population.
Not to mention the damage Zionsim has caused to "diaspora" Jewry, where these are now
the object of suspicion, as dually loyal. This is ironic, noting that Israel was created
to solve, not encourage, anti-Semitism.
No better proof to the failure of Zionism than the fact, that diaspora Jewry today
number more than Israel's Jews. Or the fiasco over how a "Jew" should be defined,
and the monopoly of Orthodox Jews on that.
In short, people, Jews or not, do NOT have to agree that the ideology of Zionism is
right or just, especially when its plan/outcome for the Palestinians is taken into
consideration. But that doesn't mean these are now anti-Semites -- "subtly" or otherwise.
Nor "self-haters", to use the silly term invented by Zionist propaganda machines to
describe Jews who disagree with Zionism, or just those who criticize Israel. If that's
hard for you to see, then regretably, the propaganda you have been subjected to has
worked.
>...Catholic bigot Joseph Sobran...
> ..such luminaries as Grace Halsell, Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak, who
>also figure prominently
You may call this a "diversion," but the question remains that you have to judge him and
other writers based on what they write. So, again, which of the articles by Sobran that
I posted contains bigotry? More importantly, which contains false information or
misrepresentations? Or is it possible that Sobran's "bigotness" is directly related to
his criticizm of Israel and pointing out some of her sins, especially against U.S.
interests? The same for Chomsky, Finkelstein, Halsell(?), Shahak, who shed a light at
Zionism's and Israel's severe injustice against the Palestinians? Can you point out to
faults, let alone bigotry, in their arguments, PLEASE? Or is this just another attack on
the messenger because you can't refute their sensible message? Having dealt with many
supporters of Israel, I became quite familiar with their "counter arguments", which
usually boil down to either diversion/changing of subject (like pointing to Arab world
ills), or attacking the messenger as anti-Semite, because they don't like/can't refute
the message.
Another issue is that these writers, like anyone else, have bias. But their bias is
on the side of the victims of this conflict -- the Palestinians. When the truth itself
is imbalanced one can't be asked to write a balanced coverage of events, i.e., assigning
equal blame and praise to both sides. For example, no respectable human being can write
about the Nazis and Jews of WWII without siding with the Jews, for example.
Besides, Chomsky, Shahak's "imbalance" is anyway kept away from mainstream media,
which is littered with pro-victimizers like A.M. Rosenthal, Safire, Zukerman, etc.,
shaping the "truth" about Israel their way, and creating an evermore Middle
East-ignorant public.
>Perhaps I should point out Noam Chomsky's links to "holocaust revisionists"
>such as Robert Faurisson?
Explain "links"? What Chomsky said was that Faurisson has the right to say what he
wants to say. He didn't agree with Faurisson that the Holocaust was a hoax. Do you
find anything wrong with allowing anyone to say what they want to say, better known as
freedom of speech, regardless of how absurd what they say is?
>Or the fact that Finkelstein's writings are available from various revisionist
>websites? These, then, are your God-sent Jews. 'Nuff said.
So, if a revisionist website included an article by mother Teresa, does that mean
that mother Teresa is a Holocaust revisionist/denier? Or because a white supremacist
hate site included a saying by Gandhi, then that makes Gandhi a white supremacist?
Interesting logic. "'Nuff said."
>Point two: on Lebanon, your statement about Israel, the SLA, the Maronites
>etc. It's quite humorous that you infer that I only consider those who "slave
>for Israel" true Lebanese. How do you arrive at the conclusion that (i) I don't
>disapprove of the manner in which many SLA members have been, at times,
>treated,(ii) that I'm a carbon copy of Begin (who was dropped by Gemayel rather
>than vice-versa, by the way), and (iii) that my sympathy for the Maronites is
>purely self-serving (I happen to be familiar with the story of the village of
>Damour and its destruction by the PLO)? That's somewhat presumptuous, don't you
>think? As for the SLA men and their supposed en-bloc return to Syria (I mean
>Lebanon), to the best of my knowledge, most of them are still in Israel. Oh, and
>those SLA members who requested asylum in Germany did so of their own free will.
>How do you arrive at the conclusion that (i) I don't disapprove of the manner
>in which many SLA members have been, at times, treated,
How did you arrive at the conclusion that I believe that you don't disapprove of the
manner in which many SLA members have been, at times, treated? I was merely mentioning
how Israel has treated the SLA; nothing about you (dis)approving of it.
>(ii) that I'm a carbon copy of Begin (who was dropped by Gemayel rather than
>vice-versa, by the way)
How did you arrive at the conclusion that I implied that Begin is a "carbon copy" of you?
Or that I implied/said that Bashir dropped Begin? Actually, what I said was that Bashir
wasn't as much of a puppet as Begin had hoped for, i.e. Bashir didn't do EVERYTHING Begin
requested. That's all I said, in an attempt to shed some light at a prominent "Maronite"
who sided with Israel, to supplement my argument.
>(iii) that my sympathy for the Maronites is purely self-serving (I happen to be
>familiar with the story of the village of Damour and its destruction by the PLO)?
For one, the fact that you here seem to have selectively omitted any of the countless
other, and more infamous atrocities, especially those committed by Israel and her
"Maronites". Or the fact that you didn't mention the atrocities Israel committed
against the Palestinians, which included their expulsion into Lebanon, a country with
an extremely sensitive religious balance. Any knowledgeable observer can forsee that
dumping tens/hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Moselm, into a small country with
ultra-sensitive Christian-Muslim balance, with a history of religioun-related blood shed,
is a formula for explosion. Of course Israel doesn't care -- let alone "has her heart
with the Maronite." Check out also Sharett's diaries for what Israel had planned for
Lebanon long ago.
>I'm sure you've never experienced Muslim discrimination. Soon, few Christian
>Arabs will: they're emigrating en masse to better climes, where some settle in
>to a receptive society (need I point to Carlos Menem in Argentina and Edward
>Seaga in Jamaica?) and others, such as Edward Said and James Zogby, continue to
>attest to the good will of their Muslim brethren far, far away, as well as the
>justness of assorted Ba'athists, despots and fundamentalists. They do so from
>the decadent West where they have consciously chosen to settle (as have you-I
>believe you mentioned freedom of speech, which is telling), and from where they
>insist that it's only a minority of Muslims who discriminate etc. Of course it's
>only a minority, and of course all Arabs are !
>brothers You don't really expect me to believe this bunkum, do you? And, more
>pertinently, do you seriously expect us Jews, who've experienced Arab racism and
>violence firsthand, from Baghdad to Casablanca, to simply accede to demands that
>we reduce ourselves to dhimmis in an Arab-Muslim polity?
Few notes:
- When Said and Zogby "attest to the good will of their Muslim brethren far, far away"
they are trying to correct the mostly negative, racist and inhumane stereotypes of their
bretheren. I do the same, and so should any human being. What I have seen from my Muslim
neighbors is almost the exact opposite of what is portrayed here in the west. Regardless
of the way many Muslims interpret the ideology of Islam, Muslim are human beings first,
like you and me. I try to inform people about that, that they should be fair, and aware
that every culture, religion, etc, has its share of good and bad, and that generalization
are wrong. (Of all people, Jews, such as yourself, should know something about being
discriminated against as a group.) I apply the same criterion for the west where I live.
I don't see the west as corrupt, anymore than any part of the world is, each in its own
way. There is good and bad. Furthermore, where do you see Said, Zogby or I endorsing the
"justness of assorted Ba'athists, despots and fundamentalists", if that's the implication?
Just because my site's mission happened to be focused on Israel's sins, does not mean that
I endorse Arab thugs. Likewise, just because Said, Zogby or myself are now in the West
does not mean that we shouldn't defend any wrong done against Muslims.
- Believing that there are good and bad Muslims, doesn't mean that one agrees that
we should have Islamic states -- let alone agreeing to be reduced to Dhimmis under them.
I strongly reject that, as does Said and Zogby. Likewise, I strongly disagree that one
should have a Christian -- or a JEWISH STATE for that matter! These are inherently
discriminatory to those who don't belong to the title group. Seperation of church and
state are a must. There indeed is a current toward more fundamentalism and extremism in
Arab/Muslim countries, but that largely stems from lack of education and the miserable
economic situation. The existence of a belligerent and hegemonic state like Israel,
trying to usurp whatever remains of Palestinian land and resources, doesn't help. Nor
does the existence of superpowers that are hungery for Arab natural resources.
- Carlos Menem was a Muslim. Being so, I am not sure what discrimination you are talking
about. Menem later "converted" to Catholicism, mostly for political reasons.
- Throughout history, Jews were discriminated against in Arab countries, but on average,
not more, actually less than in other countries. Note that the anti-Jewish discrimination
I am referring to in Arab countries is the one that took place before the rise of Zionism.
During the age of Zionism, however, anti-Jewish discrimination by Arab countries can be
directly linked (but never justified) to Zionism and Israel, in addition to ignorance
among many Arabs of the difference between Zionists and Jews.
>I believe you mentioned freedom of speech, which is telling
"Telling" what?? I CLEARLY said that there is no freedom of speech where I was raised!
I clearly acknowledged that there is ample corruption and restriction of freedoms in Arab
world!
As you can see, I agree with many of what you say about despotic Arab regimes and
fundamentalist Islam --not with your generalization though-- who are working to convert
their countries into Sharee3a-abiding Muslim states. This is indeed worrisome to me as
a Christian. However, again, you forget the mission of this site, to which you are
posting your feedback. The dictators and fundamentalist are indeed running rampant
in the Middle East, but PLEASE, how is that related to the mission of this site --
exposing the sins Israel committed and continues to commit against the Palestinians? For
example, why should someone who is fighting against Apartheid in the 1980s, be obliged
to always focus on "but other African countries have dictators and are corrupt"???
DO YOU HAVE ANY DEFENSE AGAINST ISRAEL'S SINS, LISTED IN THIS SITE, ASIDE FROM TELLING
ME THAT ARABS AND MUSLIMS COUNTRIES ARE CORRUPT? Perhaps you now see the frame of mind
that the Zionist propaganda machine has locked you in!?
Okay, I'll make a deal with you. If I acknowledge the terrible ills of the Arab world
--I already DID-- will you be at least be as fair, and acknowledge the inherent injustice
in Zionism, or at least Israel's sins against the Palestinians?
>Point Four: "I can't understand the link between the Ha'aretz section
>of society and the rest of us who just want to be left alone". It's quite simple
>really: There is a section of Israel's elite, represented by Ha'aretz, which
>will go to extreme lenghts to convince itself of the Arabs' just intentions, who
>will do anything to justify any Arab act of violence, from the murder of 65-year
>old wheelchair-bound Leon Klinghoffer aboard the Achille Lauro to Edward Said's
>recent brave act of rock-throwing at the Fatma Gate to any number of stabbings
>and car bombings. The rest of us, however, have no desire to be led like lambs
>to the slaughter by an Arab world which will always find an excuse for violence
>against Jews.
Thanks for the clarification; what said before was unclear, but now I see what you meant.
I don't recall Ha'aretz trying to JUSTIFY any violent act against Jews. However, I have
seen sometimes attempts at EXPLAINING these acts --e.g. by Haas, Levy, and D. Rubinstein--
by putting them in their historical context, of what the Palestinians victims have been/are
going through at the hands of Israel. It is quite sad that you consider Israelis as being
"led like lambs" if they try, for a moment, to see what their Palestinians victims have
suffered, which continues today, in the process of you and other Zionist realizing your
dream. As for Ha'aretz explaining some Palestinian violence, wouldn't you, for example,
try to explain it, if you found out about a 1945 plot by some Jews aimed at committing
violence against Germans?
ARE YOU SERIOUS when you mention Said's largely symbolic rock-throwing in the same rank
as other acts of terrorism and violence? (Been listening to Morton Klein lately?)
Wouldn't you feel like throwing a rock at the fence of your once-home, now inhabitted by
the person who kicked you and your family out? Again, wouldn't you feel like throwing
a rock at a border fence of a Nazi regime? Can you honestly compare the act of
Palestinian rock-throwing, with what the rock-throwers have been through at the hands of
Israel? It seems that sometimes the blind support for Israel leads one to rediculous ends.
>Final point: You're quite wrong. I don't use the sorry state the Arab
>world has caused itself to be in to justify Israel's supposed intransigence.
>Rather, it serves as a reminder of what would happen if we, the Jews, were to
>follow Arab dictates, and trust countries such as Iraq (obviously one of your
>favourites), where thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms in the 40's which
>made Deir Yassin look like Disney World (followed, by the way, by the
>confiscation of all Jewish property-shades of the supposed tragedy of the
>Palestinians?)
No one --God forbid-- is advocating that you, or anyone else, submit to Arab dictates.
Second, you have to distinguish between leaders and people -- mislead or not. When you
say Iraq is "obviously one of your favourites" what exactly is that supposed to mean?
In an effort to expose the death and suffering in Iraq, I devoted a section to the
horrors taking place there, to the poor people and society under the devastating sanctions
and endless bombing, where about 1.5 million have died, most of whom children under five.
DO YOU FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH ME DOING THAT, OR ME FEELING COMPASSION FOR THESE PEOPLE??
Or because "thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms" there --even if true-- then that
should mean that today's sanction-holocaust against a whole population should be welcome?
If that's the implication, it is stomach-turning. More so when the source is someone
whose ancestors have been through a Holocaust.
The confiscation of Arab-Jewish property is explainable in some cases. When someone of
your people is leaving to join your enemies, for example. Not all Jews left for Israel,
or are Zionists though. I find it deplorable that these had their properties confiscated.
Not to mention that the confiscated money has probably landed --like the money of the
rest of the Arab people-- in the bottomless pockets of bloody Arab dictators.
Another point: I am not sure what pogroms killed thousands in Iraq in the 40s. Please
provide references. But, it should be eye-opening for you to discover what happened to
Iraqi Jews in the late 40s -- at the hands of Zionist undergrounds by direction of Israel's
leaders. Then, Zionists underground terrorized the historic Iraqi Jewish community into
fleeing to Israel, by making it look like the Iraqi people/government were responsible.
I have several enlightening articles for your reading, one by a Zionist underground, who,
at the orders of Israel's leaders, with an urgent need to populate the new state with
Jews, terrorized Jews to emigrate for Israel (see here).
Also, check out other books by ex-CIA agent, Eveland, stationed in Iraq and a excerpts
of a book by veteran British Journalist David Hirst, and yes, Chomsky's "Towards a New
Cold War," 1982. You will experience nothing short of disgust at the leaders' policies
of this "light unto nations" state called Israel.
Finally, when you juxtapose the "tragedy of Palesitnians" with "SUPPOSED", you are
shamefully stooping to the level of Holocaust deniers. You may support Israel, but
don't let that tamper with your judgment as a human being with the ability to distinguish
right from wrong, or allow your view to be so severely distorted in the pursuit of a
political agenda.
>NB If you decide to publish this letter, please do so integrally.
I make sure to first publish every feedbacks integrally. After that, I try to pick the
main arguments presented and then respond to them individually. That's much less space/
time consuming than trying to summarize every posted issue before I respond to it. This
is the best way to simulate people debating: one person presents an argument, the other
responds to it. Should any reader have questions about the full context, then they can
always look right above the response for the full unaltered feedback. That's my way of
doing things.
Sam
22 Sep 2000
Dear Sam,
I want to understand more about the problems of the Middle East. Your website
is very informing, but where do I start? Can you suggest the steps I can follow
or can I start reading anywhere? I am not too familiar with the issues, and this
site contains so much material that I get disoriented. Please help. Thank you.
Nina
You ask an excellent question. I sometimes forget to think about this basic
issue, of where should start when in learning about the Middle East.
You are right, there are countless articles and books.
Books:
- "Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict" by Charles Smith. Text-book
approach to the conflict.
- "The Gun and the Olive Branch", 1977, by veteran Middle East reporter
David Hirst, although the book is a bit out of date for post 1977
events and the newly declassified archives for the 1948 war. But,
it is still one of the best. Some chapters of that book are included
in various places, and under Hirst's author index.
- "Deliberate Deceptions" 1996 by Paul Findley. Summarizes Israel's sins
in 26(?) small chapters, formulated in a "Myth versus Fallacies" manner.
A good reference and an easy read.
- "The Fateful Triangle", 1983, 1999 by renowned linguist and political
analyst Noam Chomsky. He added three chapters in 1999, but hasn't
modified the 1983 parts. The book is NOT introductory however, as it
contains heavy analysis, as is customary of anything Chomsky writes.
- I also heard some recommendation of the book "The Arabs and Israel
for Beginners" by Ron David.
Articles/essays (at my site):
Anything by Robert Fisk and Charley Reese. Then, you should read Noam
Chomsky, but again, keep him for later, as he is not "introductory" material.
Also, check out any article with the "@" symbol. This usually indicates an
article/essay that stands out. A good one I recently added is chapter
one of the Book by Palumbo ("The Palestinian Catastrophe") found, again,
under the author's page. Another is an essay by Lance Selfa about Zionism.
best
Sam
20 Sep 2000
Hello, i am the one who wrote that long-winded "feedback" on 19th of august
Let me start (please don't reply to this first section..) by
apologizing, after re-reading part of my message i appear to have let
"the moment" (time during which i was writing the last one) let me
get slightly over-emotional. I am sorry if i came off as "arrogent".
I plan to re-read the past feedbacks once again at a soon date, and am
already beggining to slowly gather facts similar to yours (i think one
is exactly the same, but convays a message almost opposite to what you
wrote), either way that is all not relevant for this moment (the time
for that debate will come soon enough :P)
All i tried to convay with the old israelites is NOT that we were the originals
there,
every Israeli is taught that Israelites arrived to the land "of milk and honey".
But i was trying to explain that (although you are, in my opinion, 80% right in
considering the past 50 years as almost "the present")
the issue of who lived there is impossible to answer.
I would also like to mention the 1917 Declaration. Yes, I am familiar
with it, and yes, it does state a Jewish homeland WITHIN palestine,
but if you look at the 1948 (i know you will strongly disagree with this, i'm
almost intrigued to see a responce)
plan for "Israel", Israel was a LOT smaller in the plans than the whole of
palestine.. i believe (i do not know the exact figure, but judging by the map i
saw)
it was meant to be 45% of palestine, with East Jerusalem as palestinian along
with a hell of a lot more than the west bank and Gaza Strip.
As the first war progressed (1948), although you claim otherwise, my
(supposedly) "Propaganda based" reaserch shows the Arab armies to clearly
be the original aggressors. Until a few months after the war Israel did not even
have a army plane, nor a group of tanks...
During this war... as heroes of both sides did "what they had to do" fought,
Israel managed
to "claim" land in responce to the arab armies which decided to claim israeli
land captured... the borders were not set at the time, that was the purpose of
the war.
As for getting kicked out of my house, well, firstly i have a question for you,
and then i'll move on to discussing that particular incident.
my question is as follows: "If Israelis came and kicked virtually all the arabs
out of Israel, why are there well over 1 million arabs living in israel today?,
and why, if this is a purely Jewish
thing, do the Druze (and some beduin) go to the israeli army?"
I will start by giving an answer to the 2nd part myself, between the fall of the
Ottoman empire, and the creation of Israel, the druze (who are not a fully
muslimarab race) were oppressed,
that is why many (not all) joined the army and helped Israel fight it's first
war.
I also have much evidance (Which i am yet collecting), proving that the
'expulsion' of palestinians from Israel was not purely an Israeli opperation, it
was partially
UN based (i do not know if you find that suprising or not).
Also, you claim the leaders knew Israel was never (even in 1973) in
life-threatening situations,
that is simply not the case. I myself have lived in Israel during the gulf war.
Israels own existance has always been it's prime concern, it is why (or as you
probably say "an excusee for terrorism") israel has expanded.
Yes, the Lebanon war was a huge mistake in my opinion, aswell as other minor
skirmishes, but the fact is Israel has, from day 1, kept a policy
of open peace, it was the arabs who had rejected it, I myself never want anyone
to be suffering, but the fact of the whole palestinian tragedy is that
they have shown no signs of fully trying to assemble their lives and culture
back together, rather occuping their whole time in order to one day re-live in
israel,
even though their (probably) Grand Parents where the only ones out of their
family who ever did. I am not saying that they are responsible for their
situation, they are not fully,
but they are respoinsbile for obsessing about it for generations instead of
simply (hateful and angry or not) trying to build a better easier future for
their children.
I have seen CNN interviews where in the gaza strip, children were being taught
to make bombs etc... they were 10 year old children, and already have been
taught to hate and destroy israel.. now i ask you another question
How can israel make peace with a country, where a large % of the population
would go to any length to hurt it?
it's very delicate..
Either way, this emial is becoming too long, so i'll quickly write one more
point and await a responce in the next few days...
I noticed your mention of US Aid, yes, it is very true and well known
that the US deeply aids israel financially, i believe it's $3billion a year
(combined military, investment and loans)
but that is not the only reason for Israels great position, wether this relates
(directly) to anything or not, Israel is (with the exception of Japan and 2 more
countries who's names escape me)
the worlds MOST advanced country in the world i do not meen production wise,
like china or taiwan, i mean the direct high-tech sector, the latest computer
technology, computer programs, plane avaiation designs, and many other things
Sorry, that had nothing to do with the subject, i just had to mention it because
it was "bugging" me that people might think it's the US alone that does it all,
as Israeli high-tech exceeds US high-tech
Either way, to conclude, yes, it is possible to say i follow Israel passionatly,
but it is incorrect to say blindly, as i recognize mistakes when they are made,
and israel like every country has made it's share of mistakes...
i'm willing to admit that, but just because mistakes were made in the past,
doesn't mean they can "simply be corrected" with the return of land here, and
there, because then nither side has learnt a lesson...
incase you (or anyone else who reads this) is unsure what i mean by that is that
if we simply gave it back, history would repeat itself, therefore we do not, we
try to slowly negotaite it back (even though we ARE negotiating their land), a
lesson has been learnt by both sides, but the palestinians are yet to embrace
it,
as they are still teaching terrorism against israel etc, whereas the israelis
(the more leftwing israelis) know it very well. and i know that while pure
equality is not there, there will always be hate and terrorism, but while there
is hate and terrorism, the more powerful will never make the rest equal,
it's a simple circle.
--
GM
(Noting the limited resources and memory space, this second feedback is the last
one of yours I will post/respond to. My apologies. This is not a discussion forum
for back-and-forth arguments. You got your chance to make a point in two "long
winded" feedbacks.)
>I would also like to mention the 1917 Declaration. Yes, I am familiar
>with it, and yes, it does state a Jewish homeland WITHIN palestine,
>but if you look at the 1948 (i know you will strongly disagree with this, i'm
>almost intrigued to see a responce) plan for "Israel", Israel was a LOT
>smaller in the plans than the whole of palestine.. i believe (i do not
>know the exact figure, but judging by the map i saw) it was meant to be
>45% of palestine, with East Jerusalem as palestinian along with a hell
>of a lot more than the west bank and Gaza Strip. As the first war
>progressed (1948), although you claim otherwise, my (supposedly) "Propaganda
>based" reaserch shows the Arab armies to clearly be the original aggressors.
First, you still haven't answered my question about the Balfour Declaration:
By whom was the land promissed to the Jews? The rightful owners of the land,
by any chance? Certainly the British weren't, and the Jews knew that. They
also knew the British had the upper hand in controlling the Arabs, and can
hence force another people on them (Jews then constituted 10% of the population).
Furthermore, unlike in the Partition resolution of 1947, the Balfour declaration
didn't call for partitioning of Palestine, nor for a sub-state where Jews are
a majority. Balfour only called for a home for Jews there.
More importantly, almost ALL of what you wrote in your paragraph above is based
on the now-outdated Zionist myths, that Israel maintained for decades, but were
finally straightened out in the 1980s, when many of the 1948 archives were
made public. So before you go on with your research, make sure you read the
following references well, covering the end of 1948 myths, especially Flapan,
Pappe, Masalha and Palumbo of the following list: Palumbo's "Palestinian
Catastrophe", Flapan's "Birth of Israel", Masalha's "Expulsion of the
Palestinians", Pappe's "Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict". Also Finkelstein's
"Image and realities" Shlaim's "Iron Wall". And Segev's "First Israelis",
Morris's "Origin of Refugees problem .." If your research avoids these
resources, or the newly-declassified archives on which their research was
based, then your account will be severely lacking. Worse yet, your account
will likely include plenty of distortions, from the classic Zionist narrative
of the events -- i.e, (again) propaganda and myths, but not facts. Sorry I
can't be nicer, but facts are facts and one has to accept them.
Besides, the Partition resolution you are probably referring to --passed after
some US/Zionist pressure and arm-twisting, coupled with the world's concern
over the plight of Europe's Jews after the Holocaust-- in 1947 (not 48)
allotted 56% (not 45%) of Palestine to the Jews. So, you got Palestinians who
owned 93% of the land (Jews owned a little less than 7%), now being told that
they will control only 45% of Palestine.
Naturally, Arabs will reject that. But, there was a de facto partition almost
and the Palestinians --not their extreme leaders, like the Mufti-- were not
really against it. Nor did the Jews themselves like the resolution, because it
called for the creation of a Palestinian state too. However, they voted for
"acceptance" as ONLY a tactic, in anticipation of Arab rejection. (One of
the myth cleared out during the 1980s). Once we are stronger we will abolish
partition and expand to thewhole of Palestine, explained Ben-Gurion.
So, in short, the Arabs wanted one state in the whole of Palestine (no mention
of kicking the Jews who were there out). While the Jews wanted all of Palestine,
and perhaps more, but being pragmatic called for only partition (the revisionists,
unlike labor, always stated more of what's on their mind: that they wanted all
of Palestine and Transjordan). Since the ideology of Zionism envisioned a Jewish
majority in the Jewish part, force was thus the only way to achieve this Zionist
dream, since the Palestinians in the future Jewish state weren't about to leave
their homes voluntarily for the Jews.
Civil war erupted after the resolution. Both sides were guilty of terrorism,
especially the LEHI and IZL of Shamir and Begin, who favored "booby-trapped
trucks in crowded arab markets" method -- ironically 50-year before Hamas
followed suit and is now being labeled terrorism. RHETORICALLY, Ben-Gurion
denounced their actions, but ACTUALLY, he didn't do much. (It was only until
later, around June 1948, that Ben-Gurion did something about Begin's IZL, BUT
that was because they challenged his leadership, not because of the terrorizing
and massacring they committed against the Palestinians.) Indeed Ben-Gurion's
Haganah did similar terrorizing of their own.
So, the Jewish area of Palestine under partition (56%) contained about 45%
Arabs!! That surely will not lead to a viable JEWISH state, in line with
the Zionist ideology of the state. The only solution to this problem is,
ethnic cleansing, by Haganah and other forces. Indeed that's what took
place *BEFORE* May 15, beginning March `48, and the implementation of Plan
Dalet. It is also noteworthy that this cleansing also included areas
*OUTSIDE* the Jewish area under partition. The Jews figured that since
the Arabs rejected partition now they have a carte blanche to conquest.
(Like if you don't agree to divide your huge yard among me and you, that
gives me the right to come and start taking whatever I want.)
In May 15, 1948 the Arabs didn't really "attack," they tried to INTERVENE
against the ongoing expulsion and massacre of Palestinians, as well as the
encroachment by the Jews beyond their alloted UN borders. Both Haganah and
Irgun had joined forces in terrorizing Haifa and Jaffa major Arab centers --
*BEFORE* the arab armies intervened/"attacked". The same for Deir Yassin, which
took place *OUTSIDE* of land allotted for the Jewish state, and *BEFORE* arab
armies intervened/"attacked". The same for West Jerusalem, also way *OUTSIDE*
of the area alloted for Jews. The same for Acre, located *OUTSIDE* the Jewish
areas under partition, which was besieged *BEFORE* Arab intervention.
The Deir Yassin massacre in particular, which also included rapes, along with
other terror tactics used everywhere else, like loud speakers encouraging
Arabs to leave to save their lives, and fake sounds of wails, sirens and loud
bombs thrown into civilian areas, all helped for the "miraculous" clearing of
the land and the "voluntary" departure of the inferior race. More importantly,
many of these things happened --again-- *BEFORE* the Arab "attack" of May 15
and *OUTSIDE* the area alloted for Jews. What do the words *BEFORE* and
*OUTSIDE* tell you about who started the war?
>Until a few months after the war Israel did not even have a army plane,
>nor a group of tanks...
This pretty much echos the "David versus Goliath" story, another myth discarded
in the 1980s. The Arabs planned to intervene ONLY two weeks before May 15.
They had heard of one atrocity after another, some real and some exaggerated,
and after about HALF of the 1948 Palestinian refugees came flooding their
countries. (Yes, about half of the known 1948 refugees have been terrorized
into fleeing *BEFORE* Arab intervention. Another hint for you.) Arab
governments found themselves in a position where they had to intervene, or
face the anger of their people that witnessed the endless flood of refugees
telling horror stories.
Second, the state of Israel's military you describe has to be measured in
relation to the "attacking" Arab forces. The 1948-49 war lasted about 10
months more or less. Of this, the Arab "armies" were on the offensive for ONLY
the first three weeks, or about 7% of the duration! The Arab armies were ill-
organized, mostly ill-trained palace guards, under different commands, lacking
coordination, coming from countries that had their share of rivalries and
occupation, and their food supplies didn't last for more than few days. In
the words of US Sec of State Marshall, (a former US army Chief of Staff):
"Lebanon has no real army". Syria "has neither arms, nor an army worthy of
the name". Iraq "cannot afford to move more than a handful of troops" to
Palestine, while Egypt, which suffered from "strikes and disorders" was
militarily weak. The only military force was TransJordan's 5,000 soldiers,
no match to the over 60,000 Jewish soldiers (with 30,000 more on reserve) that
were well-trained, well-organized, well-motivated with one central and united
command. The total of Arab armies from five countries was around 17-20,000
soldiers, with 30,000 more reserve. All of these facts reversed the roles
of David and Goliath in the original Zionist narrative-myth. Also, King
Abdullah of TransJordan was in collusion with the Jews to divide Palestine,
where he would take what today is the West Bank (more or less) and the Jews
the rest.
>"If Israelis came and kicked virtually all the arabs out of Israel,
>why are there well over 1 million arabs living in israel today?
Israelis didn't kick out all Arabs, but the majority. Yes they left some,
like the Christians of Nazareth, (perhaps to avoid the anger of Christian
Western world), but also many other non-Christian towns. Rabin admits in his
memoirs to taking part in the deliberate, and BenGurion ordered, expulsions of
Lydda-Ramla towns. It is helpful to remember that Zionist ideology didn't
call for a PURELY Jewish state, but just a Jewish state, i.e. where Jews would
constitute a majority. So a minority non-Jews would be tolerable. About
160,000 Arabs were allowed to stay --albeit living under a harsh military
rule in army-surrounded towns (what happened to Balfour's call to protect
the rights of non-Jews?)-- while 750,000 were expelled or fled and were never
allowed back. The 160,000 are the ones who became one million today. Many of
those who stayed were also internal refugees from other parts of what became
Israel. Their houses were either taken over by Jews, or were destroyed.
>I also have much evidance (Which i am yet collecting), proving that the
>'expulsion' of palestinians from Israel was not purely an Israeli
>opperation, it was partially UN based (i do not know if you find that
>suprising or not).
The million-dollar question here of course is: IF ISRAEL DIDN'T ALONE CAUSE
THE ARABS TO FLEE --nor wanted them to, supposedly-- WHY THEN DIDN'T IT ALLOW
THEM BACK, AS REQUIRED BY INTERNATIONAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAWS, NOT TO MENTION
BASIC MORALS????? Why did Israel totally wipe out 400+ Palestinian villages
in 1948 and mine/barbwire others? Isn't it time for Israel to own up to her
actions instead of exhausting every loop-hole and legality of assigning blame
to Arabs, British, UN, or Eskimos? Instead of you saying "we make mistakes
like any other country does", isn't it better to come out and just say it like
it is: "We coveted their land, pure and simple, and expulsion was the only way
we could do it"? Isn't it right and ethical to begin restituting the
Palestinians for the misery and hardship, not to mention death and persecution,
caused them by Israel, instead of giving them miserable bread-crumbs in the
present "peace process"?
>and why, if this is a purely Jewish thing, do the Druze (and some beduin)
>go to the israeli army?" I will start by giving an answer to the 2nd part
>myself, between the fall of the Ottoman empire, and the creation of Israel,
>the druze (who are not a fully muslimarab race) were oppressed, that is
>why many (not all) joined the army and helped Israel fight it's first war.
Druze had animosity with Muslims, and some did collaborate with the invaders.
Not all Druze though. Why, for example, didn't Golan's Druze --the majority
of population there-- follow suit after 1967, as they mostly reject(ed) Israeli
citizenship and proudly call(ed) themselves Syrians? Why didn't the Lebanese
Druze side with Israel during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon, like some Maronites
did? (I am not sure about your use of the word "race" in reference to Druze.)
But ULTIMATELY, what does the loyalty of some Druze have to do with the
Arab-Israeli conflict, whose core is the dispossession of the Palestinians by
Israel?? Or is this another of the many diversion and smokescreen techniques
taught by Israel to its followers, to show the ills of the Arab world, when
one asks them about what Israel did to the Palestinians?
>Also, you claim the leaders knew Israel was never (even in 1973) in
>life-threatening situations, that is simply not the case. I myself
>have lived in Israel during the gulf war. Israels own existance has
>always been it's prime concern, it is why (or as you probably say "an
>excusee for terrorism") israel has expanded.
If Israel TRULY believed its existence was endangered at the time, why then
didn't it use its nuclear weapons, as we all know she would? Arabs leaders also
know about Israel's nukes, and would, thus, never dare endanger Israel --
assuming they have the ability to do so. Also, there is a difference between
"being in a life-threatening situation," and "THINKING you are in a life-
threatening situation." In 1973 and during the Gulf War Israel for a MOMENT
DID feel threatened. But, in 73, it became clear, as Israeli leaders admitted,
that the intention of Egypt and Syria was not to threaten Israel, but to make a
statement (Egypt) and liberate the Golan Heights (Syria). After the first Skud
from Saddam it also became clear that there was no danger to Israel's existence.
Other than that there hasn't been any "threat to Israel's existence" in the
past half century.
I didn't get what you mean when reasoning that Israel has expanded BECAUSE it is
concerned about its existence!? After all, if you are truly concerned about
your existence, the last thing you want to do is provoke those who are
supposedly gonna wipe you out by taking more of their land.
>Yes, the Lebanon war was a huge mistake in my opinion, aswell as other minor
>skirmishes,
The 2,000 civilians massacred at Sabra and Shatila would justly be outraged at
you describing what happened to them as just a "mistake", especially that it
was neither the first nor the last time that such "mistakes", the killing of
their brethren, were committed by Israel. The same for the 17,000 civilians
that Israel killed with outlawed weapons, from cluster, to phosphoric, to
implosion bombs. The same for "skirmishes" which probably include the massacre
at Qana. If all these were mistakes, then why not try to stop them from
recurring, and reprimand those who committed them? Hint: What happened to
Sharon, Eitan and others, after Sabra and Shatilla? Or Sharon after Qibya?
Or Begin/Shamir after Deir Yassin and Bernadotte? Rabin after Lydda-Ramle?
Most of these terrorists and war criminals even became Israeli ministers.
How should the Palestinians react to this, Israel's clear lack of respect
to Palestinians lives, when their killers are honored by Israel? If Israel's
sincere, then how about issuing public apology, and pay reparations for other
Israeli "mistakes" like uprooting an entire people?
That, coupled with the fact that the "mistakes" Israel recognize are usually
the ones that led to the tarnishing of her public image, not because
Palestinians/Arabs were slaughtered.
>but the fact is Israel has, from day 1, kept a policy
>of open peace, it was the arabs who had rejected it
Woooah!! Another major myth successfully propagated by Israel, and swallowed
by you -- a byproduct of your passionate attachment. Check out the rejection
of repatriation of refugees offered to Ben Gurion and Dayan immediately after
48 by Syria's president Zaim. Israel rejected it in order to maintain trouble
at its borders --refugees living there-- to give her pretext to expand later,
as she did. The countless offers by the US, Arabs, UN, Palestinians, after
1967 rejected by Israel are a testament. In your research, look for the
following keywords: Jarring mission, the Rogers plan, of the late 60s early
70s, Sadat's 1971 offer of peace, PLO's 1976 offer, the 1977 Carter
Comprehensive Peace Plan (later modified to meet Israeli conditions), the 1981
Prince Fahd Peace Plan, the 1982 Reagan Peace Plan, the 1982 Arab Fez Peace
Plan, the 1988 PLO Peace Plan and the 1989 Bush Peace plan. All pretty much
included recognition of Israel's right to exist. The problem for Israel,
leading to her REJECTION of them ALL-- was that some included a Palestinian
state's right to exist and return of land Israel occupied in 67. (Read a
monumental book by Chomsky called "Fateful Triangle".)
Furthermore, why did Israel ALWAYS reject to meet with the Palestinians, until
forced to it by the US? Israel reason in her words was first that "there is no
such thing as Palestinian people". Then it was that she would never negotiate
with terrorists (look who's talking!) Or that she can't give land back, because
that would endanger her security (ie, that Israel's security is based on
denying the Palestinians justice!) After 1973 Israel wanted to settle with
Arab countries, but not with Palestinians. Until the Intifada wrecked Israel's
"humane" image in the eyes of the world. Now, perhaps, you are beginning to
see the roots of lack of peace in the Middle East -- if your passion does not
get in the way, that is.
The only reason Israel accepted a return of Sinai, aside from US offer of
endless cash and weaponry, is the 1973 war. Otherwise, it would have accepted
Sadat's 1971 offer which was pretty much identical to the camp david one, and
prevented the massive loss of life on both side in 1973. Also, had it not been
for the intifada and the intervention of Bush-Baker later, there wouldn't be
a "peace process" to return some land to Palestinians.
So, a correction to your statement above is the following:
ISRAEL, FROM DAY ONE, REJECTED EVERYTHING THAT INCLUDED A TRUE PALESTINIAN
RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION ON THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND FULL RETURN OF
LAND IT OCCUPIED IN 1967, AND RETURN OF REFUGEES.
A good exercise for a young historian like yourself, who is interested in
truth --and not just trying to prove that his side is right-- is to prove
that the above is wrong.
>the fact of the whole palestinian tragedy is that they have shown no signs
>of fully trying to assemble their lives and culture back together, rather
>occuping their whole time in order to one day re-live in israel, even
>though their (probably) Grand Parents where the only ones out of their
>family who ever did. I am not saying that they are responsible for their
>situation, they are not fully, but they are respoinsbile for obsessing
>about it for generations instead of simply (hateful and angry or not)
>trying to build a better easier future for their children.
Where would the Palestinians "assemble their lives and culture back together"
except in a land of their own, free from brutal occupation? Secondly, if Jews
have "obsessed" themselves with return for 2000 years, then why do you deny
the Palestinians doing the same for only 50 years?
>Sorry, that had nothing to do with the subject, i just had to mention it
>because it was "bugging" me that people might think it's the US alone that
>does it all, as Israeli high-tech exceeds US high-tech
No one denies that Israel has done a great deal on her own. However,
the pressing question is: without the US where would Israel be today?
>but the palestinians are yet to embrace it, as they are still teaching
>terrorism against israel
What the Palestinians teach their children in not "terrorism" nor "hate" but
truth. When a Jew teaches his children about what the Nazis did to his
ancestors, he's not teaching him about terrorism or hate. When Palestinians
tell their children that the Jews took their land away, these are facts. To
them terrorism is heroism against an enemy that robbed them from their land
and CONTINUE to do so. Many of their brothers, fathers and uncles are in jail
endlessly WITHOUT trial or evidence. Some were/are being tortured. Some of
their houses were/are being demolished, to build a for-Jews-only highway.
Palestinian towns are under endless and suffocating closures and Palestinian
economy is in ever peril, and unemployment high. 81% of Palestinian water is
stolen daily by Israel and their crops die. Palestinians who are in serious
health risk have to wait for hours in ambulances stuck at Israeli check points.
These things are happening today, all the times.
Do still feel you have the guts to look a Palestinian in the eye and ask him:
"why are you still teaching your kids terrorism or hate?"
Only when Israel ceases to be the brutal occupier and recognizes Palestinian
rights, including return/restitution of refugees, that Palestinians will start
to see Israel as a true and sincere partner. Israel allows any Jew anywhere
to "return", so why not allow the same for Palestinians, many of whom are
rottening in wretched camps? Could racism be a factor in Israel's fear to
endanger the "Jewish character" of the state, by allowing a Palestinian return?
The current "negotiations" and "peace process" are mostly an Israeli attempt to
legitimize control of Palestinian lives and resources, and annul international
laws with the approval of some Palestinian leaders. Israel figured that why
not give the control of the inner towns and crowded Palestinians centers to
Palestinians. Let them do the trash and tax collection, while we (Israel)
continue to control their borders, water, skies, and will have the right to
interfere any time we say we feel "threatened" (these are the leaked terms of
the current "peace" process/camp David II).
Would you, as a Palestinian accept such a humiliating "peace" as Arafat is
forced to do by Israel and Clinton today? Would you accept your map looking
like a couple of disconnected and overcrowded patches of land, surrounded by
Israeli settlements, and criss-crossed by "for Jews only" highways, kinda like
South Africa did to the blacks during Apartheid, with ISRAEL'S HELP TO
CIRCUMVENT WORLD EMBARGO, mind you? (Check the final status map presented to
Arafat, and the leaked terms of the Camp David II accord, in www.fmep.org and
Fisk's recent article). This is no peace; this is capitulations and the
Palestinian people know it, but are too weak to do anything about it.
Implementing international law is the only way to peace, notably resolutions
242 and 194. PERIOD.
>yes, it is possible to say i follow Israel passionatly, but it is incorrect
>to say blindly, as i recognize mistakes when they are made, and israel like
>every country has made it's share of mistakes...
Passion is not bad. Obviously, I have some myself. BUT, passion that is not
coupled with REASON and SOLID FACTS, will lead to, yes, irrationality and blind
support. Recognizing one's SINS (not just "mistakes") is nice, but is in no way
enough. One has to SINCERELY and HONESTLY set about to correct them in a
somewhat just way, let alone continue to engage in them today. Israel
continues to build settlements as we speak, on Palestinian confiscated land and
demolished homes. At the beginning of the "peace" process, Israeli settlers on
stolen land numbered around 120,000. Today the number is over 200,000. Does
that indicate to you an "open peace" policy, and a sincere desire for peace
on the part of your Israel? Does it occur to you at all that Israel is just
trying to create facts on the ground, under the cover of "peace", that the
Palestinians will have to swallow (or US taxpayers to pay up for) later?
Finally, before you begin your research, make sure to stay away from myths
and propaganda-based Zionist accounts I referred to above. Begin reading some
of the references I recommended above. You can start with Ha'aretz articles by
Gideon Levy, that I archived, most recently this
one.
Full justice is impossible. No one is asking for Israelis to leave all of Israel
for the Palestinians. The Palestinians are making the greatest compromise by
asking ONLY for 22% of Palestine back, (the area of the 1967-occupied West Bank
and Gaza). Quit seeking treaties as a way to end conflict. At least quit seeking
a treaty with corrupt leaders that don't represent the majority of their people.
Start showing humanity and compassion toward the Palestinians, instead of locking
and torturing them in the name of preserving your security. A fundamentally
just solution is to treat Palestinians as true brothers, and enough of this
Jewish preference (Zionism) thing. Publicly acknowledge (you and Israel) the
massive wrong done them. Apologize and ask forgiveness for the dispossession,
murder and inhumanity you inflicted. Show your true contrition and desire for
compensation by creating a bi-national state in all of Palestine and give ALL
equality and citizenship regardless of religion. Finally, allow refugees wishing
to return to do so, and/or pay compensation.
Alas, her actions today tell me that Israel doesn't want any of that; its
desire does NOT seem to be a justice-based peace. It only wants to get rid of
the Palestinian problem once and for all, with extremely minimal payback -- but
with the nice appearance of "peace", that is in reality nothing but capitulation
of the Palestinians.
Best,
Sam
Sep 19, 2000
The following is from an exchange I had with some Liberty survivors after
informing them about receiving a feedback from Mr. John Weeks (see Aug 21
below). I am posting only the relevant elements of these discussions.
FROM SURVIVOR JOE MEADORS
Hello Sam,
There is an oft-made claim that the US government has already investigated
the attack on the USS Liberty (indeed, some have made the ludicrous claim
that the US government has conducted a dozen or so investigations of the
attack) the US government has NEVER investigated the attack on the USS
Liberty. USS Liberty survivors have searched for evidence for just such an
investigation for over 30 years with no success. True, the USS Liberty has
been referred to in passing in other investigations conducted by various US
government bodies, but the attack itself has never been the subject of any
US government investigation whatsoever.
As to Mr. Week's request that you refer him to one reliable source that the
flag was flying -- he already has been but apparently doesn't view USS
Liberty survivors as reliable sources. I was one of the Signalmen on the
USS Liberty and ensured the flag was flying throughout the attack. When I
noticed the flag had been shot down during the air attack Frank Brown and I
raised Holiday Colors (our largest flag) on one of our port halyards. That
flag flew throughout the torpedo boat attack. It is strange that Mr. Weeks
made this request of you since he knows this fact from the usenet
discussions we had some time ago. I also personally invited Mr. Weeks to
attend our reunion at which he could speak with numerous USS Liberty
survivors who were on deck and saw the flag flying -- he declined my
invitation citing fear for his personal safety.
One account of the attack on the USS Liberty that has received a following
especially from those who hold the position that the attack was an accident
was a dissertation written by an obscure Florida bankruptcy
judge. Apparently unknown to those who have accepted this version without
question and present it as infallible truth is the fact that we have
documented at least two instances of the author fabricating interviews
contained in his dissertation. In another instance he included a letter in
his dissertation without bothering to receive permission from the author of
that letter. These facts alone raise serious doubts as to the veracity of
the remainder of the information included in his dissertation.
Warmest regards,
Joe Meadors
Vice President
USS Liberty Veterans Association
http://www.ussliberty.com
=============================
=============================
FROM SURVIVOR JIM ENNES
....
[Mike Weeks] seems to be making a career of attempting to discredit
the eyewitness reports of survivors of the attack. For one
thing, despite Weeks's claims, we were fired upon until 3:15
and no offer of help or apology came until about 4:30. Life
is too short for endless debate with people whose only
purpose in life seems to be defending the State of Israel
against the eyewitness reports of people who were attacked.
You need only consider that Liberty survivors are unanimous,
along with their skipper, in reporting that the Israeli version
of the attack is untrue and that the attack was deliberate.
And we are joined by such senior Americans in positions to know
as Admiral Tom Moorer, Admiral Bobby Inman, General Marshall
Carter, Secretary of State Dean Rusk and many others. Mike
Weeks was not there. He stands almost alone among Americans
who claim to know more of this attack than we who saw it
first hand.
Check http://www.ussliberty.com
Find reports of survivors at
http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/voices.htm
I was Liberty's OOD when the attack started.
Jim [Ennes]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
.. most of what I have to say and much of what my shipmates say is in
the web site or in my book. People can find the fact there. Others,
such as the Weeks person, would quarrel endlessly even if we produced
an Israeli who told us from personal experience that it was
deliberate.
In fact, we have done just that. We have found FOUR Israelis who have
told us that. One was a pilot who called me from New York, another
was an Israeli corporal (later major) who observed the attack from an
Israeli war room, and the third was a Mossad officer who knows from
friends that it was deliberate, and still another was an Israeli
intelligence officer who told me that he knows for a fact from friends
who were involved that the attack was deliberate.
Of course, we don't need that kind of testimony. The very fact that
they circled us thirteen times before firing, then claim they did not,
and the fact that they continued to fire for another forty minutes
after the torpedo explosion, but claim that they stopped firing
immediately, along with other gaping holes in their story of what
happened, all convince every man aboard the ship and a great many
senior US officials that this attack was no accident.
Unfortunately, certain diehard supporters of Israel will never admit
the truth no matter what evidence can be shown, so after a while those
discussions become pointless. These are not people who are interested
in the facts; they only wish to engage us in endless debate and we
have other things to do.
I have had mail from a few of your readers, and the question most
often asked is, "Why would Israel attack an American ship?" The
answer is clear and simple. We were an intelligence ship. Clearly
they were doing something that they did not want the US to know about,
so they attack, and they did it with the confidence that their friends
in the US Congress would never hold them accountable. THAT is more
disgraceful than the simple fact that they attacked a friendly ship.
One can understand why Israel might want to remove a foreign
intelligence ship from its coast during wartime; one cannot understand
why the US Congress would pretend that it was all a tragic accident,
refusing even to question American eyewitness survivors.
When people have questions, they can find most of the answer at
http://www.ussliberty.com or in my book, Assault on the Liberty, which
is available in any library or from the web site or specifically from
http://www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty/jimsbook.htm
jim [Ennes]
19 Sep 2000
excellent site sam.
i suggest you put it on a backup server somewhere else, as some zionist at
geocities might "accidentally" delete your page.
- S.Q.
19 Sep 2000
there is no justice or peace
in the world as long as the
jews and their friends exisist
on earth.
All people are inherently good and mean well. Governments and
rulers corrupt everyone. Just like there are good Arabs and bad
Arabs, there are also good and bad Jews.
Sam
12 Sep 2000
Dear Sam!
Thank God you are back! I did not see you responding to the feedbacks
so I started getting worried! Be safe my friend.
Sherene
That is very sweet. Thank you Sherene. -- Sam
1 Sep 2000
An excellent site. Keep on deluding yourself. As for Lebanon: our hearts are
with the Maronites, the true Lebanese who created what was once the most
prosperous country in the Middle East. Peace upon the SLA, men who were merely
defending their country from Shi'ite, Syrian and Palestinian agression. Wherever
the Palestinian Arabs have gone, they have wreaked havoc: Lebanon, Kuwait,
Jordan...by the way, if you are an Arab American, why do you prefer living in
the US (which is in the hands of a Jewish clique, in your words) to the Middle
East? Why are the Arabs completely incapable of assessing their own mistakes?
Why do you deny the obvious: that non-Muslims and non-Arabs are persecuted in
the Arab-Muslim world (see: the Berbers of Kabyle, the Copts in Egypt, the Kurds
in Syria, the Maronites in Lebanon). I don't care what Edward Said or Azmi
Bishara say: I have seen how the Muslims of Bethlehem and Nazareth torment their
fellow Arabs merely on account of their religion.
Lighten up, Sam: Ha'aretz represents merely a tiny section
ofIsraeli society. The rest of us have only one desire: to be left alone. Once
the Arabs stop killing and persecuting each other, and have a long hard look at
their own societies, peace will come. Once they stop persecuting each other,
they will perhaps appreciate the value of democracy. Until that day comes (and
may it come soon) we'll have to defend ourselves.
Oh, as for AIPAC: if you live in the perfidious USA, you must be
aware of the rules of democracy. You probably know that the Arabs and Muslims
have their own PACS. The difference: they are too busy spouting libel and
paranoia to do anything constructive.
All the best, and may the Arabs see that we are their brothers
and wish only to live in peace.
Read my response(s) below to several feedbacks displaying similar distortion
and lack of understanding of the situation, like the one you submitted above.
>As for Lebanon: our hearts are with the Maronites, the true Lebanese who
>created what was once the most prosperous country in the Middle East.
Yup, and Israelis that collude with her enemies, at Israel's expense are
"true Israelis"!
The only reason you consider them "true Lebanese" is that SOME Maronite
colluded with Israel to liquidate the Palestinians. They were also part of
Israel's plan to control the southern part of Lebanon, perhaps annex it, and
suck up the resources Israeli style. Menahim Begin was furious when he found out
that the late Bashir Jemayel, a Maronite leader, was not the puppet he had
hoped for, to enable Israel to freely control southern Lebanon and allowing
Israeli products into Lebanon custom free. So he fell from "grace". Only
those who slaved for Israel, at the expense of Lebanese interest, are
the ones you consider "true" Lebanese.
It is instructive to see how Israel has its "hearts with the Maronites"
in the case of the South Lebanon Army, and how Israel dumped these in refugee
camps, turned some of them back and is trying to get rid of the rest to
Germany and other countries. The number of SLA chosing to return to Lebanon
and face long jail terms, over staying in Israel, is also a telling sign of
Israel treats her informants after their usefulness is exhausted. Man, to
think after all the SLA did for Israel, especially putting their lives on
the line for her. This should serve as a lesson to all others who side with
an aggressor and with Israel especially.
>Wherever the Palestinian Arabs have gone, they have wreaked havoc:
First, a correction: the word "gone" here should be replaced by "expelled to".
Second, the problem was not really caused by the Palestinians, but by those who
expelled and dumped them on other countries, with already burdened economy,
to live in squalid refugee camps among sewers and rats. If I kick you and
your family out of your house and force you to live in your neighbor's house
and off his income and food, I would guess that you and your neighbor will
likely develop problems. If some force expells tens of millions of Latin
American into the US, against the US people's wish, then trouble will also
likely emerge. This is natural. What adds insult to injury is that along the
way some naive observer will blame the whole thing on the expelled victims,
instead of those who forced their ill fate on them.
>... the US (which is in the hands of a Jewish clique, in your words)
Where did you see mention of a US that's "in the hands of a Jewish clique"?
I mentioned the influence of pro-Israel/Zionist individuals, but never
have I/will I generalized/generalize to all Jews. After all, I owe an
immense gratitude to such wonderful and God-sent Jews like Chomsky,
Finkelstein, Shahak and other non-Zionists, from whom I learned a lot of
the information I list on this site. These people deserve a monument for
their courage in telling the truth against peer ostracization.
>why do you prefer living in the US .... to the Middle East? Why are the
>Arabs completely incapable of assessing their own mistakes? Why do you
>deny the obvious: that non-Muslims and non-Arabs are persecuted in the
>Arab-Muslim world (see: the Berbers of Kabyle, the Copts in Egypt, the Kurds
>in Syria, the Maronites in Lebanon). I don\264t care what Edward Said or Azmi
>Bishara say: I have seen how the Muslims of Bethlehem and Nazareth torment
>their fellow Arabs merely on account of their religion.
I came to the US as a student. Then got used to economic comfort, and later
freedom of speech, so I stayed. It wasn't because I was a Christian being
persecuted because of my faith in a mostly Muslim country. None of my
Christian friends and relatives would say they were ever discriminated
against based on their faith where I came from.
I am of course not saying that it doesn't happen. On the contrary. As you
mentioned, Copts in Egypt are but one example. But, AGAIN AND AGAIN, how is
that and other WELL-KNOWN ills of the Arab world related to the mission of
this site, which is CLEARLY "The Case Against Israel"? That would be like
countring anti-Apartheid activists by telling them "how come you are not
criticizing the existence of corrupt dictatorships across Africa?" Just
because I list what Israel has done to the Palestinians does not mean I have
to mention that Arab countries are corrupt, or perhaps that Panda bear are
getting closer to extinction. The ills of the Arab world are well known and
are loudly trumpeted in our media, so why do I need to repeat that in a
site dedicated for "the Case Against Israel"? PLEASE explain.
Pointing at the ills of the Arab world is a smart smokescreen tactic by Israel's
diplomats, intended to divert attention of the injustice Israel inflicted on
the Palestinians/Arabs. (You, as a supporter of Israel, have swallowed it, it
seems.) That argument might work when you call in a radio show where the host
has no clue about the conflict and is merely parroting propaganda lines. In
this feedback page, however, you won't get far with it.
>Lighten up, Sam: Ha'aretz represents merely a tiny section ofIsraeli
>society. The rest of us have only one desire: to be left alone. Once
>the Arabs stop killing and persecuting each other, and have a long hard
>look at their own societies, peace will come. Once they stop persecuting
>each other, they will perhaps appreciate the value of democracy. Until that
>day comes (and may it come soon) we'll have to defend ourselves.
I don't understand the link between the Ha'aretz "section of Israeli society"
and "the rest of you" who only want to be left alone.
While the Arabs might still be backward and might be "killing and persecuting
each other" what they ask from Israel is a pretty legitimate, fair and a just
request: mainly to correct the justice done to the Palestinians and other Arabs
whose land Israel occupies. Basic and simple. Give justice to the Palestinians
and Arabs (or just stop taking it away, like the land confiscation and house
demolitions going on all the times) and then, if they continue on "threatening"
Israel then we'll have a different talk.
Also, please detail to me how correcting the ills of Arab societies would
produce peace between the Arabs and Israel, when Israel continues to withold
justice due Palestinians and Arabs?
>Until that day comes (and may it come soon) we'll have to defend ourselves.
Did you say you "defend" yourselves? Perhaps like the muscular robber is gonna
defend himself against the little weak human, whose house he stole and whose
freedom he robbed. Interesting context for the otherwise positive word "defend".
>All the best, and may the Arabs see that we are their brothers and wish only
>to live in peace.
Have you ever thought that the Arabs have the same wish for Israelis?
Aside from that, the Arabs will only see you as brothers when you start acting like
ones. As an example, 81% of West Bank water is/has regularly been stolen by Israel,
while Palestinian crops die, but settlers' swimming pools are filled with water.
Do you HONESTLY see a sign of "brotherhood" in this situation? I didn't even
address torture, endless confiscation of land, demolition of houses, curfews,
exploitation of labor, expansion of settlements, etc, all of which have been
going on for the past 52 years, and continue today.
Here's a hint for you: give back the Palestinians their lands and freedoms, and
none of the bullshit Apartheid-like patches of land in the west bank under the
"peace" process. Allow Palestinian return (like you allow Jews) if they choose
to and pay compensation for the horrible injustices done them by Israel for
over 50 years.
Then you can speak to Palestinians and Arabs about brotherhood.
27 Aug 2000
GREAT WEBSITE!!!! i always thought of this idea but i could never ever write
like this.. this is really good what you all have done here.. I would advice if
possible please get your own domain name because this website is too good to be
true. and at the same time if possible you can publish these articles as a
book.
May God reward you all for this site!!
25 Aug 2000
your mama is fukening besh.i wont to funk your sister.hasan naserala
big heshol
israel stey for ever
from rafi isrel
e-mail-----rafi.sha@surfree.net.il
bay.you setopt arb
25 Aug 2000
we givati from the israel army will kik ur ass!!!
and kill all of u fuckenn arbbes.
i hope one day i can see lebenon in flames.
i am aprod givati solder.
i killed one of u and i am wetting to kill agen!!!
p.s
i am soprised that u know inglesh or to riagt
from aour short meetings i do know that u know how to DIE!!!
23 Aug 2000
sam
I read some of the feedbacks and you seem to put a lot of emphasis on justice
and just peace, you seem to forget that israel won all wars by isrsel, I suggest
you take a crash course in international relations and political science. The
first thing you will find out is that justice, fairness and terms as above
hardly exist. The name of the game is pragmatism. Even Arafat understood it.
Look at Assad, he was not able to get the Golan in his lifetime. Not only did he
lose it in 67, but failed to conquer it in 1973 after attacking on the Day of
Atonement. Arab countries thought Israel was just a passing phenomenon like a
fashion. However in 50 years, not only did they have to admit that Israel exists
but also they have to reckon with it
Look at Egypt they got everything but that was 20 years ago. Things change and
in a few years, I am not sure the window of opportunities will still be there.
Chaim
> The name of the game is pragmatism.
Pragmatism is a nice-sounding word. However, when someone robs you of your
house, kills part of your family, then asks you to be pragmatic (read: "let's
forget what I did to you"), then such pragmatism, put forth by the victimizer,
is clearly another avenue to manipulate justice -- a means to make the victim
accept his (in this case continued) victimization.
The issue for the Palestinians is different from other Arabs like Egypt and
Syria. The Palestinian dispossession is the core of the conflict. Look at
what Arafat is getting back for his "pragmatism": No return to 1967 lines, no
refugee return, no E. Jerusalem, no removal of settlements, no control of West
bank water, and the "state" that he will get will consist of patches of lands
that are disconnected, surrounded by Israel (check out the final status map
presented by Israel to Arafat in May, at www.fmep.org). Had he known before
hand where his "pragmatism" would lead him and his people, I am sure he would
reconsider. He must be biting his finger-nails now wishing he had listened
to Assad's advice on being "non-pragmatic".
In summary, the issue is pragmatism ONLY IN PART. However, there is a BASIC
level of justice and freedom that you just can't accept going below. The fact
is that the more the Arab compromised the higher Israel's demand have become.
While Palestinians used to be asking for all of Palestine, today their asking
for 22% only.
A slave can't be "pragmatic" and accept the continuation of his slavery, for token
"rights" as Arafat has done. Arafat's mistake, of course, is that he accepted
Oslo at face value, believing the "good" intentions of Israel. Oslo, of
course, wasn't clear on where things would lead as far as the refugees,
settlement colonies, water control, borders, E. Jerusalem. So, for his foolish
trust of Israel, he now is well set to accept the continuation of occupation
under the guise of liberation -- "pragmatism" in your words. He thought that
shaking hand with Israel meant that Israel now suddenly wants what's fair for
the Palestinians. Arafat would have been smarter had he asked, like Asad, for
the application of international law, pure and simple.
>I suggest you take a crash course in international relations and political science.
Only if you promise to take a course in basic human rights.
Sam
22 Aug 2000
From: Bilal P
This site is absolutely fantastic - its brilliantly put together and highly
releant. What a wonderful resource it is. I want to promote it with an extra
star rating on my site (www.patelscornershop.com). Can I do this please?
Please be my guest. Thank you for your compliments.
Sam
Dear visitors: After receiving the feedback below from Mr Mike Weeks, and
responding to it, I got in touch with several USS Liberty survivors. Their
response, indicating their familiarity with Mr. Weeks' and his arguments, are
posted above under Sep 19 heading.
SAM -
If the matter presented on the USS Liberty incident is any indication, I suspect
that what is presented on other subjects should be very seriously questioned.
It appears no attempt has been made to objectively look at the incident. It
appears that there has been no attempt to double-check any material presented.
Just using the Liberty intro as an example:
Written: "The American ship bombed mercilessly for over an hour by Israeli war
planes and torpedo boats"
By what reliable source (please quote) is there any indication that the IDF "for
over an hour" did the above with planes AND torpedo boats? How to explain away,
rationally, the following statement signed by Liberty's skipper (as only one
example) at 1503 (3:03PM):
"1503: One MTB returned to ship and signalled, 'Do you need help.'
Commanding officer directed that, 'negative' be sent in reply."
If what was written was factual, how to explain that the Liberty wasn't sunk?
Written: "during a cease-fire (June 8) in the six-day War of June 1967 right
before capturing the Golan heights."
What source (please quote) states that there was a cease-fire IN EFFECT at 2PM
local between Israel and Egypt on June 8th as Liberty was operating within sight
of El Arish?
Written: "The result: 34 Marines dead and 171 wounded."
It can be assumed that this is a simple typo, as it was not 34 Marines killed,
but 31 naval officers and sailors, 2 Marines and one civilian.
Written: "The survivors were never given a congressional hearing"
What's not been kept in mind is that this incident took place back in 1967 - it
would not have been the "norm" to have survivors testify before Congress in
1967. However, the Congress has conducted a series of investigations over the
years on the subject, and what is claimed as the truth as represented by this
web site, has not been shown to be accurate. The latest investigation was in
1991/92, conducted by the House Armed Services Sub-Committee on Investigations
(chairman Mavroulas, (D-MA).)
Written: "and were only honored away from cameras."
Then how to explain, again as only one example, the PHOTO in Ennes' book which
shows LTJG Lucas receiving the Silver Star by Captain McGonagle? Or the PHOTOS
in various newspapers when Captain McGonagle was presented the Medal of Honor?
What on earth is the source (please quote) for the above statement?
Written: "The U.S. government under president Johnson, refused to investigate
and accepted Israel's mistaken identity excuse instantaneously."
How to explain "refused to investigate" when there have been multiple
investigations by the USG, both when LBJ was president, and later? Such as the
Congress, CIA, DOD and NSA. How to explain the lack of mentioning that it was
the apology which was accepted "instantaneously?" The various investigations
which followed, and which some undoubtedly used sources located in Israel, did
not prove that the attack was made knowing the ship was American.
It should be noted that there's no reference, or quote, from the book on the web
page: "CONFIRM OR DENY: Informing the People on National Security", by Phil G.
Goulding, which states on page 134: "As weeks and months passed, we gradually
picked up informal bits and pieces from various sources in Israel. It was
impossible to guarantee the accuracy of most of them, and the government could
do nothing with them formally. One could conclude-and I did-that the attackers
did not know they were killing Americans and had not acted with malice or
deliberation. One could not prove it."
Would that not present a more balanced picture of this tragic incident?
Written: "The ship flew a clear American flag, identified itself as American to
the Israelis,"
What is the source (please quote) which states "identified itself as
American..." PRIOR to the attack? How to explain otherwise the statements of
crewmen, under oath, that no such identification was made until AFTER the attack
was over? How to explain the statements made by the re-interviewing of bridge
personnel following the naval court of inquiry which has as it's last paragraph:
"10. PRECISE TIME SEQUENCING CONTINUES MOST DIFFICULT AS APPARENT FROM ABOVE
HOWEVER, C.O. AND THOMPSON ARE UNSHAKABLE IN CONVICTION IMPOSSIBLE READ PT'S
LIGHT PRIOR ATTACK AND ON FACT THAT LIBERTY ALDIS LAMP NOT UNLIMBERED UNTIL
AFTER TORPEDO HIT. I AM CONVINCED THESE MEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT."
Written: "and was in international waters. U.S. planes from neighboring USS
Saratoga were dispatched for help, but were later ordered back by Washington
before reaching the USS Liberty."
How to explain that even before Washington learned that the Israelis were
involved, that the Commander, Sixth Fleet had already ordered the recall of the
flights because he received that same message before it had reached Washington,
as well as knowing Liberty was no longer under attack and was departing the
area? To wit from the:
"THE NATIONAL MILITARY COMMAND CENTER
WASHINGTON, DC
1530 EDT 8 JUNE 1967
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD OF PRELIMINARY INFORMATION
SUBJECT: THE USS LIBERTY (ATGR-5) STRUCK BY TORPEDO
...
4. At 081045 EDT, [4:45PM local] a message was received from the USDAO in Tel
Aviv stating that Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats had erroneously
attacked a vessel in the Mediterranean Sea at 080800 EDT, ..."
And from the Sixth Fleet:
Z 081439Z JUN 67 [4:39PM 8 June local]
FM COMSIXTHFLT
...
A. USDAO TEL AVIV ISRAEL 081414Z JUNE 67
1. IN VIEW REF A AM RECALLING ALL SIXTHFLT A/C.
2. LIBERTY RPTS LIST CONTROLLABLE ??? ??E?? DESTRUCTIN [?]
COMPLETED. ALSO 4 DEAD EXCESS OF 50 WOUNDED."
This message was generated six minutes prior to Washington receiving the 4:14PM
local message from Tel Aviv. And when did Sixth Fleet receive that message? It
was:
"Z 081414Z JUN 67 [4:14PM 8 June local]
FM USDAO TEL AVIV ISRAEL
TO COMSIXTHFLT
...
TOR: 08/1428Z JUN 67"
Time of receipt (TOR) by COMSIXTHFLT [4:28PM local], was some 17 minutes before
it reached Washington.
Whatever is the overall agenda for having such a one-sided presentation
regarding the subject of the Middle East, by attempting to link it to the
Liberty incident, it clearly shows that what is presented on the web site must
be questioned regarding the intent towards an accurate presentation.
In addition, credibility suffers greatly when the site is maintained by an
unknown individual, or group of individuals. Any excuse given also places into
question the credibility of the material presented. So saying, feel free to
display my name if there is any response to the specifics of what is presented
in this post.
Mike Weeks
Thank you for writing. Really. Your account included interesting technical
information and detail of how the "other side" views the issue. It has also
pointed out some sloppiness in my summary of the affair, which I will work on
correcting. That's because what I wrote there was strictly from memory.
HOWEVER, the crux of the story --essentially taken from the survivors' account,
high-ranking US officials, like Admiral Moorer and Sec Rusk and from various
books and articles mentioned below by respectable authors-- STANDS. I urge you
to not only seek those references but also to contact the Liberty crew members,
for a more detailed account, if you haven't already. After all, they are THE
main witnesses to this horrible event and they are the ones who back my claims
above.
Incidentally, on the same day I received your feedback, I received a message
on my site from an ex-crew member of the Liberty (check it out below)! His name
is John Gidusko and his email and webpage are gidusko@iag.net
http://www.iag.net/~gidusko/liberty. I am sure he and other crew members would
be glad to talk to you.
Onto the claims you and I made.
>Written: "The American ship bombed mercilessly for over an hour by Israeli war
>planes and torpedo boats"
>
>By what reliable source (please quote) is there any indication that the IDF "for
>over an hour" did the above with planes AND torpedo boats?
The survivors story, James Ennes and others, as well as key US officials', give all
the appropriate detail on that. Also, see Neff, Green and a quick mention in Cockburn
below. The above account is clear and as a result stands. In addition, see for
example, Ennes's article in the Washington Report
(http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605028.htm).
>How to explain away, rationally, the following statement signed by Liberty's
>skipper (as only one example) at 1503 (3:03PM):
>
>"1503: One MTB returned to ship and signalled, 'Do you need help.'
>Commanding officer directed that, 'negative' be sent in reply."
Yup, McGonangle did reject help, and also GAVE THE FINGER (see Neff) to an Israeli
helicopter that offered further help later. Witnesses also said that McGonagle
responded with a "go to hell" when initially offered help (see Lilienthal). I would
react in the same way if someone tries to destroy my ship, kill all aboard, but
then "offers help". Israel's offer of help was aimed at avoiding embarrassment,
upon discovering their failure of erasing the evidence, as the ship didn't really
sink nor the crew didn't all die.
There were also a Russian offer of help that was turned down, by the way.
James Akins, a career foreign service officer, served as U.S. ambassador to Saudi
Arabia, writes: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912028.html )
"When the Israelis saw they were unable to sink the ship after more than two
hours of intense attack, they offered support to the survivors, who refused it."
If this particular matter is any indication, then (the sources of) YOUR account
should be called into question, as they have clearly taken McGonagle's refusal
for help out of context, to distort the issue.
>If what was written was factual, how to explain that the Liberty wasn't sunk?
By a miracle! Attempts at sinking the ship and kill the crew by Israel were clear.
Rockets, torpedo, napalm and others. What was left of the ship was sold as scrap
metal. Those aboard the ship were able to contain the damage, it seems, enough to
maintain the Liberty afloat, after Israel's MTBs also destroyed the lifeboats the
Liberty crew lowered to abandon ship.
>Written: "during a cease-fire (June 8) in the six-day War of June 1967 right
>before capturing the Golan heights."
>
>What source (please quote) states that there was a cease-fire IN EFFECT at 2PM
>local between Israel and Egypt on June 8th as Liberty was operating within sight
>of El Arish?
Israel attributed its initial refusal to accept cease-fire, pushed for by the US
and the UN, to other Arab countries' similar refusal. But when they all accepted
Israel was left no excuse. Then it showed its true intention by conquering the
Golan. But, I do understand your technicality pointing to the "IN EFFECT" nature
of the cease-fire, and will mention that in the account.
>Written: "The result: 34 Marines dead and 171 wounded."
>
>It can be assumed that this is a simple typo, as it was not 34 Marines killed,
>but 31 naval officers and sailors, 2 Marines and one civilian.
A sloppiness on my part. And to be REALLY specific one has to count Ship Officers,
Chief Petty Officers, Petty officers, Seaman, Marines, and Civilians, to use the
ship's roster designation (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/roster.txt)
>Written: "The survivors were never given a congressional hearing"
>
>What's not been kept in mind is that this incident took place back in 1967 - it
>would not have been the "norm" to have survivors testify before Congress in
>1967. However, the Congress has conducted a series of investigations over the
>years on the subject, and what is claimed as the truth as represented by this
>web site, has not been shown to be accurate. The latest investigation was in
>1991/92, conducted by the House Armed Services Sub-Committee on Investigations
>(chairman Mavroulas, (D-MA).)
You must be referring to the lip-service and minor inquiries that Congress
conducted. There was never a FULL investigation. Whether it is the norm or
not, the survivors are the prime witnesses to the event, besides the Israeli
pilots -- two of whom, it was leaked out, might have been American citizens!
Dismissing their testimony is telling, on your part and the US government's.
According to ship CO McGonagle (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/mcg2prez.txt)
in a letter to President Clinton:
"This is the only US Navy ship attacked by a foreign nation, involving a large loss
of life and so many personnel injured that has never been accorded a full
Congressional hearing."
Syndicated columnist Charley Reese wrote (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/reese.htm)
"A Navy court of inquiry was a whitewash--so bad, in fact, that a Navy legal
officer in Washington refused to endorse it."
Survivor Ennes: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0689/8906016.htm)
"The USS Liberty remains the only major maritime disaster in all American history
that has not been investigated by Congress."
"Sen. John McCain (D-AZ) also assigned a staff member to inquire into the circumstances
of the attack. Months later McCain advises that the inquiry is progressing slowly and
that no results can be expected soon. No survivors have been queried. As a former Navy
pilot and a former POW, Sen. McCain should have a special interest in this matter. It
was McCain's father, Admiral John McCain, who convened the original Navy Court of
Inquiry. Unfortunately, follow-up letters to McCain's office elicit no signs of
progress. His "inquiry" seems little more than a diplomatic delaying tactic. "
Ennes: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0689/8906016.htm)
"Members of Congress continue to give lip service to the need for a proper
inquiry into the attack, while failing to follow up with any action. "
Furthermore, (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605028.htm)
"More important are the war crimes discussed by [US Navy Commander Walter] Jacobsen.
These things should have been investigated in 1967. Yet U.S. officials have ignored
the offenses for 29 years, refusing to investigate or even to acknowledge them"
And more later from Ennes (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/submarine.txt)
"In fact, the Israeli assault on the Liberty remains the only major maritime event
in American history that has not been investigated by the Congress. For comparison,
the U.S. committed more than 300 people and seven months to investigating the
uncontested single hit by an Iraqi missile on USS Stark in the Arabian Gulf. Yet,
even though 250 survivors of the Liberty say Israel is lying about the 75-minute
attack on their ship, no member of Congress since Adlai Stevenson II has shown the
slightest interest in finding the truth. When pressed, members of Congress generally
tell their constituents -- as they have since 1967 -- that an investigation would
be impossible because too much time has passed, and because Israel could not be
compelled to testify."
According to Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/052785/850527001.html):
"While the Congress did have a subcommittee make a limited investigation, there was
never a formal congressional hearing such as occurred in the case of the USS Pueblo,
for instance. "
>Written: "and were only honored away from cameras."
>
>Then how to explain, again as only one example, the PHOTO in Ennes' book which
>shows LTJG Lucas receiving the Silver Star by Captain McGonagle? Or the PHOTOS
>in various newspapers when Captain McGonagle was presented the Medal of Honor?
>
>What on earth is the source (please quote) for the above statement?
According to Gene Kirk, a USS Liberty survivor, and C. Patrick Quinlan, a retired
U.S. foreign service officer
(http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1292/9212064.html)
"Johnson ordered the Liberty crew separated and silenced, on pain of dismissal from
the Navy. Captain McGonagle was awarded his Congressional Medal of Honor at an
obscure location, while on the same day Johnson honored a Vietnam War hero in the
White House."
Columnist Reese continues: (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/reese.htm)
"A unit citation, issued in 1967, was never given to the crew until years later,
and then in an unpublicized ceremony. The commanding officer was also belatedly
given the Congressional Medal of Honor--quietly."
The cameras I was referring to were MAINSTREAM cameras, as befits this major
offense on an American ship, by an "ally". That it is almost a RARITY that
one encounters an American, military or not, who has heard about the USS
Liberty bombing --let alone the survivors' version-- is a testament to that.
>Written: "The U.S. government under president Johnson, refused to investigate
>and accepted Israel's mistaken identity excuse instantaneously."
>
>How to explain "refused to investigate" when there have been multiple
>investigations by the USG, both when LBJ was president, and later? Such as the
>Congress, CIA, DOD and NSA. How to explain the lack of mentioning that it was
>the apology which was accepted "instantaneously?" The various investigations
>which followed, and which some undoubtedly used sources located in Israel, did
>not prove that the attack was made knowing the ship was American.
Most, if not all of these "investigation" were flawed, since they were based on
premise that the attack was an "accident" (see Green).
Also, from an report "Remember the Maine Liberty!" by historian, researcher and
an author of a book on the Liberty John Borne
(http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/link.txt)
"Yet the U.S. Government accepted the Israeli excuse instantly."
From Findley's Deliberate Deceptions, p.41 :
On Nov 6, 1991 columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak (Washington Post)
discovered that the U.S. embassy in Beirut had intercepted Israeli radio
traffic in which an Israeli pilot reported: "It's an American ship." The
Israeli command ignored the report and ordered the pilot to press his attack.
The report was confirmed by Dwight Porter, who was the American ambassador
to Lebanon at the time.
James Akins comments (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912028.html)
"The columnists [Evans & Novak] got further confirmation from an American-born Israeli
major, Seth Mintz, who was in the war room in Tel Aviv at the time of the attack. He
is quoted as saying, `Everyone felt it was an American ship and that it was the
Liberty...there were comments about the markings, about the flag. Everyone in
that room was convinced that it was an American ship.' Mintz told Evans and
Novak that `The Israelis were guilty of an outrage.' The American suppression
of the truth is surely an equal outrage. There have also been reports, but never
confirmed on the record, that at least one of the attacking pilots was an
American citizen. "
>It should be noted that there's no reference, or quote, from the book on the web
>page: "CONFIRM OR DENY: Informing the People on National Security", by Phil G.
>Goulding, which states on page 134: "As weeks and months passed, we gradually
>picked up informal bits and pieces from various sources in Israel. It was
>impossible to guarantee the accuracy of most of them, and the government could
>do nothing with them formally. One could conclude-and I did-that the attackers
>did not know they were killing Americans and had not acted with malice or
>deliberation. One could not prove it."
>
>Would that not present a more balanced picture of this tragic incident?
>
>Written: "The ship flew a clear American flag, identified itself as American to
>the Israelis,"
There are endless mentions of the ship's CLEARLY hoisting a flag, made visible by a
light breeze, in Ennes's, Neff's, Hirsh's, Cockburn's, Reese, Akins, Moorer, Maverick,
not to mention the survivors. Also, the name/designation of the ship written in
giant letters on the stern. These should have been easily visible to the Israelis,
since the Liberty crew could see the Israeli pilots in their cockpit with
binoculars as well as count their rockets. After the initial bombardment the flag
seems to have been destroyed. So it was replaced by a larger 8x12 feet one.
Furthermore, Israelis aren't so dumb to not recognize an American ship after
at least several hours of reconnaissance, with ship designation, flag, etc.,
clear.
Admiral Moorer continues (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/052785/850527001.html):
"Israel continues to insist that the attack was a case of mistaken identity.
However, this claim simply does not hold water. I personally have spent
thousands of hours in peace and war searching for and identifying ships on the
high seas. Based on this experience, I am certain that a highly trained military
force such as the Israelis possess could not have made such a tragic error of
misidentification. As a matter of fact, in clear visibility this unique ship was
flying a very large, eight foot American flag. Furthermore, Israeli planes circled
the ship beforehand and then proceeded to attack her over an extended period
of time. There is simply no way that the Israeli pilots and torpedo boat crews
could have concluded that it was anything other than a U.S. ship."
B U T ...
at least a day before the Liberty was attacked (sometimes on June 7, 1967), "the
NSA learned, from an intelligence report emanating from the Office of the
US Defense Attache in Tel Aviv, that ISRAEL WAS PLANNING TO ATTACK THE LIBERTY
IF HER COURSE WAS NOT CHANGED." (see Green, p.215) (my emphasis). Representative
Robert L.F. Sikes ... recalls that a representative of the CIA testified
to the working group that the frantic efforts by the NSA and the JCS to move
the ship on the evening of June 7 were prompted by an intelligence report
from the Office of the US Defense Attache in Tel Aviv... that the IDF planned
to attack the Liberty if she continued to operate in Israeli coastal water"
(see Green, p.239). In other words, the Israelis KNEW of the Liberty's presence!
Need there be more said? A more realistic image is that the Liberty had
the ability to break codes and find out what the Israelis were up to,
like conquering the Golan, with the hope of avoiding American pressure
to refrain. The Liberty would have also found out that the Israelis,
after breaking the Arabs' codes, made up false report to Jordan, and
made them look like they were coming from Egypt, to inform them (falsely)
that Egypt was achieving victories, and that the Jordanians should shift
their force to certain locations to help (so Israel can create appropriate
situations to allow easy conquest of the West Bank).
>What is the source (please quote) which states "identified itself as
>American..." PRIOR to the attack? How to explain otherwise the statements of
>crewmen, under oath, that no such identification was made until AFTER the attack
>was over? How to explain the statements made by the re-interviewing of bridge
>personnel following the naval court of inquiry which has as it's last paragraph:
>"10. PRECISE TIME SEQUENCING CONTINUES MOST DIFFICULT AS APPARENT FROM ABOVE
>HOWEVER, C.O. AND THOMPSON ARE UNSHAKABLE IN CONVICTION IMPOSSIBLE READ PT'S
>LIGHT PRIOR ATTACK AND ON FACT THAT LIBERTY ALDIS LAMP NOT UNLIMBERED UNTIL
>AFTER TORPEDO HIT. I AM CONVINCED THESE MEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT."
Ennes write: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/123085/851230004.html)
"Salans' report, which ran to five single-spaced pages, rejected in turn each key
element of the Israeli excuse: Tracked at 30 knots? (Impossible. The ship never
exceeded 5 knots.) Identified only once and then forgotten? (False. The ship was
reconnoitered eight times in daylight.) Erased from the Israeli chart? (Unlikely.)
Israeli forces circled before attacking but could find no flag? (Not so.)
THE LIBERTY REFUSED TO IDENTIFY HERSELF? (FALSE.) Mistaken for an Egyptian
freighter? (Unlikely.) " (My Emphasis)
Ennes writes later (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605028.htm)
"... we DID fly a flag. We DID identify ourselves. We WERE in international waters.
They did NOT stop firing after seeing our flag as they claim, but continued to
fire for another 40 minutes. The attack was not brief or accidental as Israel
claims. We did not "attempt to hide" or escape when detected, as Israel has
charged. These things are easy to prove." (Emphasis in original)
James Akins writes: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912028.html )
"On June 5, when Israel attacked Egypt and destroyed most of its air force, the Liberty
was already in the region. Commander William McGonagle of the Liberty immediately asked
Vice Admiral Martin at the Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany
the Liberty and serve as its armed escort and an auxiliary communications center.
"The following day, June 6, Admiral Martin replied: `LIBERTY IS A CLEARLY MARKED
UNITED STATES SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, NOT A PARTICIPANT IN THE CONFLICT AND
NOT A REASONABLE SUBJECT FOR ATTACK BY ANY NATION. REQUEST DENIED.'"
>Written: "and was in international waters. U.S. planes from neighboring USS
>Saratoga were dispatched for help, but were later ordered back by Washington
>before reaching the USS Liberty."
>
>How to explain that even before Washington learned that the Israelis were
>involved, that the Commander, Sixth Fleet had already ordered the recall of the
>flights because he received that same message before it had reached Washington,
>as well as knowing Liberty was no longer under attack and was departing the
>area?
The first dispatch for help, right after the initial Israeli assault, was
reflexive (see Green) and was called back, (by Washington/RADM Geis). I haven't
seen any real explanation of why they were called back the first time. However,
Johnson's apparent interest in covering up the event is telling. Aside from that
here are some comments:
James Akins (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912028.html) continues:
"Shortly after the word of the attack and the 12 planes dispatched to support it
reached Washington, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara personally got on the
circuit and said, `Tell Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately.'"
Ennes: (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605028.htm )
"When the Liberty was attacked, Captain Joseph Tully in the aircraft carrier USS
Saratoga received the ship's call for help and immediately sent jet aircraft to
her assistance. Tully's jets were recalled almost immediately by orders from Washington."
Liberty ex-crew member John Gidusko says: (http://www.iag.net/~gidusko/liberty/)
"The defenseless LIBERTY radioed for help. Two aircraft carriers in the Med
responded by launching fighter aircraft. Unbelievably, they were recalled by
the White House. RADM Geis, then commanding the carriers in the Sixth Fleet,
called Washington personally to confirm the order. SecDef McNamara came on the
line, then President Johnson. Johnson indicated to Geis that the aircraft were
to be returned, that he would not have his allies embarrassed, and that he
didn't care who was killed or what was done to the ship. Geis, like any good
sailor, recalled the aircraft."
>Whatever is the overall agenda for having such a one-sided presentation
>regarding the subject of the Middle East, by attempting to link it to the
>Liberty incident, it clearly shows that what is presented on the web site must
>be questioned regarding the intent towards an accurate presentation.
Perhaps it is your agenda and claim to "objectivity" that is called into question
when you seem to have dismissed the majority of the overwhelming testimony by
the survivors -- the main witnesses-victims -- incriminating Israel.
A reminder: Presenting "the case against Israel", be it against Palestinians or
anyone, happens to be THE MISSION of this site. The Liberty affair fits snugly
in this mission, and the cover-up that followed tell something about the inflated
influence of pro-Israel groups on US Middle East policies and perhaps a
collusion between the governments of US and Israel -- at the expense of US lives.
The one-sidedness of this site is intended to balance a vast gap left by our
politicians and media, from CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc. Not to mention that the
one-sidedness of this site is proudly in favor of the victims, and that Israel's
aggression and expulsion of the Palestinians is the root of the Middle East
conflict.
In the case of the Liberty, the survivors' story was a deja vu in the
endlessly-long history of Israel's belligerence and lies against anyone that stands
in its path of lust for land and resources. Therefore, I naturally chose to believe
the survivors' story --the main witnesses, mind you-- as did many other respectable
authors, high ranking officers, magazines, etc, over Israel's account. Not to
mention that their story, endorsed by some US officials, is highly more credible
and and way more consistent than Israel's.
Thus, "the account of the attack given by the Liberty men is the correct and truthful
one" and that the attack "was deliberate and that all available evidence points to this
conclusion", as concluded researcher John Borne according to a Phoenix Gazette
Editorial by Mark Genrich (http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/gaz0696.txt)
>In addition, credibility suffers greatly when the site is maintained by an
>unknown individual, or group of individuals. Any excuse given also places into
>question the credibility of the material presented. So saying, feel free to
>display my name if there is any response to the specifics of what is presented
>in this post.
>
>Mike Weeks
Regarding the Credibility of this site:
I would estimate that easily more than 99% of the material included in this site
is not written by me (except the feedback page). I give clear references to the highly
credible and authoritative sources of the material herein. I provide links whenever
available.
So, if you or anyone would like to confirm/refute the authenticity of the info presented
here, then by all means (try to) do so. Just follow the references and compare them to
the originals. Then, the challenge (for you) is to prove that some report somewhere here
were made up and attributed to the author/source/paper/magazine, etc. So far, two years
after creating this site, NO ONE has challenged the authenticity of ANY of the articles
and essays I included. That is because I post the material exactly as I find it at the
source, with the exception of the title in rare cases.
Finally, if you are truly interested in finding details of the Liberty event, you should
really be talking to the witnesses-survivors. You can locate them via Ennes's website
at http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/welcome.html which has, incidentally,
excellent materials on the Liberty, including references, articles, and statements by
both sides regarding this incident -- or massacre, as the survivors call it. Not to
mention that the survivors are the main source for the info listed on my site.
Good Luck
Sam
References:
Liberty survivor James Ennes's website:
http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/welcome.html.
Please also consult the following important references:
- Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes, `79 (Very detailed account)
- Taking Sides by Stephen Green `84 (Detailed account)
- Warriors for Jerusalem by Donald Neff, `87 (Detailed account)
- The Zionist Connection by Alfred Lilienthal, `78, `82. (Detailed account)
- Deliberate Deceptions, by Paul Findley 1996 (one page account)
- The Samson Option by Seymour Hirsh `91 (passing mention)
- Dangerous Liaison by A & L Cockburn. `91 (passing mention)
- A letter to President Clinton from liberty CO William McGonagle (10/24/1998)
http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/mcg2prez.txt
- "Victims of 1967 Attack Honored, Israeli Motives Still Uninvestigated"
by James Ennes http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0591/9105022.htm
- http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605028.htm
Did Israel's Armed Forces Commit One War Crim to Hide Another? by James Ennes
- The Liberty Cover-Up by syndicated columnist Charley Reese
(http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/reese.htm
- Article by Rowland Evans and Robert Novak (Washington Post?) 11/06/1991
- http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912028.html )
"The Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967, And the 32-Year Cover-up
That Has Followed" by James Akins,
- http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/052785/850527001.html
"USS Liberty: Questions Persist" by Admiral Thomas Moorer
- "USS Liberty: Periscope Photography May Finally Reveal Truth"
Washington Report June/July 1997)
http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/submarine.txt
- Link article by John Borne "Remember the Maine Liberty!"
http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/link.txt
21 Aug 2000
An outstanding page, Sam! Of course, I admit I am biased. I am an ex-crew
member of the USS Liberty, however I was not on the ship when it was attacked.
I was transferred just 5 weeks prior to the attack and was relieved by LT Jim
Ennes, who wrote the book "Assault on the Liberty." Every crew members knows,
without a doubt, that Israel attacked the ship knowing full well that it was an
American ship. Their torpedo boats threw five torpedos at the Liberty, one hit,
and as the crew was preparing to abandon ship, the small boats were shooting up
the inflated life rafts as they were being put in the water, further, shooting
at the American sailors on deck as they
attempted to help the wounded. The boats pulled one life raft from the water,
clearly marked, "USS LIBERTY" just before returning to their base. American
sailors were told to shut up about the incident under threat of court-martial,
and we waited for an investigation. We are still waiting, congress will not
touch it, (although they had no similar reluctance in the USS Pueblo and Stark
incidents and every other incident of its kind.) Keep up the good work. I was
led to the page by subscribing to TRACERLOCK, who I had searching for pages
containing USS LIBERTY. I, too, have put up a web page regarding the incident
-- http://www.iag.net/~gidusko/liberty -- and you may link to it if you like.
You may also include my name and email address in your feedback page if you
like. Thanks much!
John Gidusko, LT USN (ret)
email: gidusko@iag.net
Thank you dear sir for writing and for your nice words of compliments. I
examined your site and will immediately include a link under the Liberty
section.
Sam
19 Aug 2000
Well, let me start by saying that, and this may suprise you, your
did not impress me. Yes, you have (or seem to have done, as I have
not verified about 90% of your sources) a large amount of reaserch,
you are still stuck on several facts. I noticed your large amounts
of quotes from past israeli leaders, written after their terms were
served. This is primary evidance, but even as primary evidance, things
look very different when you are 'running the show' and when you look
back at it! I can promise you that, at the time, things looked much
more dire to the locals and even the "imperialistic" government of
Israel. I am an Historian (17 years old, but i've done my share of
reaserch, especially into Israel). I have read how you have criticized
the "IDF" for being terrorists, called the Israelis "expansionists"
and even rallied support from many who wrote feedback but let me
clarify a few things. "Palestine" was NEVER EVER a sovereign state, it
was promised to both the Israelis and the Arabs (To Israel under the
British mandate of 1917). Also, the Israelites originally occupied
The Kingdom of Israel (after a war with the "phlistines", now thought
by many to be palestinians, even though that is, as you say "a myth")
I have seen several remarks made, where you claim it's not israelis lands,
and that it was forced off arabs. I can claim the opposite, that it was
TAKEN by the Babylonians (who lived where iraq & transjordan is now)
after the Israelis lost a rebellion to them. I can claim,Post WWII,
Israelis "recaptured" their land after 2,000 years of occupation, just
as you (And 1,000's of others of done with palestinians), but I do not
because I accept the past as conditions and decisions made back then
were not the best, but we must today deal with it. Let me highlight
todays problems, which are very simple:
Israel NEEDS peace in order to continue it's amazingally rich and prosperous
economy (mainly in the high-tech sector), aswell as to make life better
This is why there is even a peace process. I know you will manipulate the
following sentance, as you did with many others I have seen (in taking them out
of context, not as in changing them directly),
but Israel at the moment does not NEED peace, it's "murderous" army
can handle all arab uprisings, currently (before the lebanon withdrawal)
they could have leveled the whole of Lebanon. They have enough weapons pointed
at all the arab capitals to destroy the arab world yet they do not!
what you (and many fellow arabs) claim to be Ehud Baraks "red lines"
are nothing more than your inability to give in to your own sense of pride,
and you use this in order to "claim" jerusalem. How do you justify your claim?
The "Golden dome" is probably the center of all these troubles, well, (we) can
claim the
territory as the land of the old temple, which existed long before the dome.
You fail to acknolage todays situation, and instead, try to use past conditions
to get back
what was lost in wars you started. You have also failed to highlight the USSR's
invovlement in this old matter.
Infact, there is soo much you have failed to (or purposefully not) hightlight so
much that I will first end this
"Feedback" (of which there is need for much more) and first read your reply
before I move onto more "true" facts, instead of misinterpretations, and what
appears to me as vein attempts to prove a point by manipulating facts.
I look forward to your responce (hoping it will be less one sided than either
your homepage, and perhaps one or two parts of this email)
I would also like to remind you that there is NO "both sides", thats an idea
which doesn't exist practically in this world, which is why your attempts will
fail.
>Well, let me start by saying that, and this may suprise you,
>your did not impress me.
No surprise at all. For some reason I don't seem to have impressed most of
the (blindly) pro-Israel visitors.
>"Palestine" was NEVER EVER a sovereign state
So what? That shameful "explanation" is one of the endless legalities
pro-Israel individuals invoke to deny the basic rights of the indigenous
Palestinian population, including denying their existence. I bet you it
was once used against the American Indians and Australia's aboriginal.
Again, SO WHAT?
>it was promised to both the Israelis and the Arabs (To Israel
>under the British mandate of 1917).
By whom was it "promised"? The RIGHTFUL owners of the land, by any chance?
Certainly the British weren't. In 1917 Jews were 10% of the population. Most
of the rest of world Jewry didn't care about Zionism -- or a homeland for
Jews in Palestine.
Nonetheless, if you were to read Balfour's short declaration/promise
to the Jews, you would note that it called for, in addition to protecting
the rights of non-Jews, the establishment of A HOME FOR JEWS in Palestine,
NOT Palestine as a Jewish state with Jews constituting majority, nor did
it sanction other conquests and horrors committed by Israel following 1948.
>Let me highlight todays problems, which are very simple:
>Israel NEEDS peace in order to continue it's amazingally rich
>and prosperous economy
Let's rewrite this statement, stripping it of propaganda, to better depict
reality: Israel needs the Palestinian to just forget/forgive their past
dispossession by Israel, which actually continues today, so it (Israel)
can enjoy its loot of Palestinian property that it stole, "in order to
continue it's amazingly rich and prosperous economy" largely sustained by
endless American aid and protection from international law, and exploitation
of Palestinian labor and markets.
>You fail to acknolage todays situation, and instead, try to use
>past conditions to get back what was lost in wars you started.
Have you first truly succeeded in acknowleding the past, that pretty much created
"today's situation", before asking me to acknowldge the latter?
Now, I take your house and kick you and your family out and live in it, while locking
you in the barn behind barbed wire. Then, I tell you: you have to "acknowledge
today's situation", i.e., accept that your house is now mine. But as a "historian"
you should definitely understand the importance of past 100-years history that
lead to "today's situation" as a means to resolve the problem. (Please spare
me the thousands-years-old history of philistines and the implicit equating
of then Israel with today's. After all, one may then argue that Israel should
clear out the land for THE rightful owner -- the Canaanites who were there
before the Israelites. The Canaanite example is given only to show you how
ridiculous the "legitimacy by ancient connection" argument. Am not saying
Jews don't have any connection; just that they can use that as an absolute
right to politically control -- by force-- the holy land).
Second: What wars did "we" start besides 1973? Please enlighten me? In the
1973 war, Syria tried to regain its lost land back, and Egypt tried to make
a statement by crossing the Suez Canal and occupying a strip East of the Canal.
There were no threat to Israel's existence, by admission of its leaders. The
second war that is questionable on who started it is the 1948 one. But if you
look at history then the Arab "attack" of May 15 was more of an intervention in
the on-going ethnic cleansing by Israel. Recent revelation also showed that
there were no threat to Israel's existence either. If you think otherwise, then
you should seriously question the sources you are using for your historian-ship.
Even if the Arabs had started, say the 1967 war (they didn't, of course), then
Israel had no right under international law and the Geneva conventions not to
mention human rights laws and basic morals, to move its civilian population into
the land it conquered, also called colonization. For example, because Iraq
attacked Kuwait, Kuwait doesn't now have the right to expel Iraqis from Iraq,
possess their homes, demolish many of the rest, then transfer Kuwaitis population
into Iraq, and make the remaining Iraqis live under a horrible slavery-like
occupation.
>I noticed your large amounts of quotes from past israeli
>leaders, written after their terms were served. This is
>primary evidance, but even as primary evidance, things look
>very different when you are 'running the show' and when you
>look back at it!
The Israeli leaders' statements serve as one of many proofs, not the
primary evidence, to Israel's real intentions. Israel's actions,
before and after any particular event, are a better material proof.
>I know you will manipulate the following sentance, as you did
>with many others I have seen (in taking them out of context,
>not as in changing them directly)
The "manipulation" you are referring to might be the removal of propaganda
contents of some of the feedback I receive, which, naturally, causes pain
to people living under the constant effect of myths-as-facts and are thus
suffering from denial. If you don't want your statements manipulated, then
be honest with yourself and write nothing but pure truth.
Also, please detail to me how I take things out of context, e.g., by giving
examples and explaining how I do it. Of course, you have to make sure before
you cite anything, that the context I supposedly take things out of is a
context relevant to the issue discussed.
>Israel at the moment does not NEED peace, it's "murderous" army can handle all
>arab uprisings, currently (before the >lebanon withdrawal) they could have
>leveled the whole of Lebanon. They have enough weapons pointed at all the arab
>capitals to destroy the arab world yet they do not!
Israel was forced to pursue "peace", via the current "peace process", by
Israel's main patron, the US. Remember Bush, Shamir, Baker, Madrid, etc?
Besides, tame your (Israel's) arrogance before claiming to pursue honest peace.
>what you (and many fellow arabs) claim to be Ehud Baraks "red lines" are
>nothing more than your inability to give in to your own sense of pride,
Only if you consider asking for what's rightfully yours --and we're only
asking for MINIMAL, not full, reparations-- to be the same as the "inability
to give in to your own sense of pride".
Finally, I strongly recommend that you read through the feedback page (again)
slowly. You'll spare both you and I going through this over and over. But
first you have to activate your compassion-for-others neurons and place yourself
the Palestinian victims' shoes, whose victimization continues today, through
inhumane home demolition, land confiscation, closure, expanding settlements,
exploitation of Palestinian labor, and finally annulling international and
human rights laws that have repeatedly condemned Israel, by the present
"peace process".
Sam
15 Aug 2000
hello sam,
yet again (i sent some feedback b4), i need to commend ur truly awesome site.
i did, however, want to give a suggestion u might want to take into
consideration. i think ur site shows israel as sucking up the resources of the
united states mercilessly without reciprocating the transaction. but just like
isreal has its dirty work done by the US, so too does the US get its dirty work
done by israel. the US uses israel to do everything that it cannot do directly,
like illegally dominating the middle east. the US has declared Manifest Destiny
over the middle east. that in itself is so racist and sanctimonious! i may not
be arab but i sympathize with the arabs who r being treated like the native
americans...to be destroyed by some God given right of America's known as
Manifest Destiny!
i can kinda see why u didnt include this angle tho in ur web site. it could
confuse a first-time reader a lot. still, u might consider adding it.
ok, but watever...ur web site still is the best thing on the web.
salaam,
javad.
11 Aug 2000
Why are you so afraid to put on your real name? If you really had
the proof and guts to stand behind them, you would, but instead you hide like
cowards and use false, limited, and highly questionable scholarships in addition
to a slew of myths
Can you point me exactly to the whereabout of the "false, limited,
and highly questionable scholarships" you found in this site? Most
of the facts I listed in this site come from reputable, mainstream and
Israeli press. So, the "false" research is not mine.
>Why are you so afraid to put on your real name?
Sadly, many of those who support Israel blindly (i.e. right or wrong) happen to
be powerful individuals with ample $$$, but most of all aren't used to hearing
the truth about Israel. They have in the past used their power and money to
silence and defame critics of Israel, instead of respond to their arguments
like civilized individuals. The targets of blindly-pro-Israel entities, has
especially been US policy makers, who don't support Israel all the way. Some
of the best policy makers the US has ever known, lost their job just because
they have modestly criticized Israel. Senator Fullbright comes to mind.
For all I know, some of the people who have power over my pay check may
happen to be blind supporters of Israel. Therefore, like anyone else, I
would rather work on my campaign of showing the world the truth about
Israel with minimal headaches and interruption from blindly-pro-Israel
people who can't handle the truth. (Are you one of those?)
Speaking of hiding one's name, you forgot to sign your letter to me!
Sam
5 Aug 2000
Sam, I am sorry but this is the best webpage by far. You are a brilliant
person, and very articulate. I invite you to register on CNN's message board
and participate if you have the time. CNN purposefully writes stories about how
Palestinians are supposedly terrorists, and then they ask "Is Peace Possible",
obviously not, the answer comes to mind, because the Palestinians are
terrorists, right?
The Jewish Participants kept nagging about how Jerusalem was not listed as part
of Israel on the weather page, until CNN changed it!
When will Americans wake up to this? Their Media is becoming an outright joke!
The BBC and European media still have bias here and there, but all in all they
are much better than Western Media!
Baz
Thank you Baz. You're very kind. --Sam
4 Aug 2000
Only one frase-"sa'yert e'goz"
Any hezbollah terrorists try to hert israel will be extict.
I will accept any comments.
4 Aug 2000
Sam
I read mission statement of your site and it was impressing, I've visited many
sites that try to show Israel's dark side, but they end up doing more harm since
they get too emotionally and personally involved, I've never seen any of that
here and that's what make this site unique, it's all hard facts. Keep it up.
Fadi
Thank you Fadi. --Sam
2 Aug 2000
Name : Basil K.
You my friend have the most amazing, informative, and well organised site. I
love the mixture of quotes and articles. I also have to commend you for your
excellent citations, your sources are great because most are from American and
Israeli sources, authors, etc...
I don't know how I found this website, but I love it, keep up the good work
brother, people like you are the pride of the Arab World.
If there's anything I can do to help, please email me, if I get any good
articles from Good sources I can send them to you too.
Salam, take care.
Thank you Basil for your very nice comments, and for your offer to help. By
all means, if you find an article that you think I should include, please
send it to me. Make sure to include the link where you found it.
Sam
1 Aug 2000
I am a lebanese citizen & i visited this site when my swiss and
french cousins where at my place and they saw the destruction made by the
israeli forces .and they are VERY ANGRY. But in their country, they praise your
efforts to regain all lebanese territories. In fact it was a success. But they
were asking to see in this website facts and figures about what YOU did to the
israeli force. they want to feel strong coz' they think the israelis are the
only strong country and that we r weak so plz put pictures about when u attacked
the commandos and put the in pieces :-) Keep it up!
31 Jul 2000
dear sam,
this is the best web page i have ever seen. it is now my home page. i salute
u.
i am making a documentary that will soon be put up on the web and i was
wondering if u minded me quoting ur responses to some of the idiotic comments on
ur reader feedback section. i will of course include an "advertisement" of ur
wonderful web page in it.
pls continue to update ur web page and try keeping up with those that
mysteriously (lol) move their documents so that ur links dont work no more. once
again, i think u have a wonderful web page and the thing i like best is ur
levelheaded, intelligent, and articulate responses to barbaric tirades made by
some in ur reader feeback section.
Assalam wa Alaycum,
--javad.
Thank you sir for your encouragement and support. --Sam
29 Jul 2000
Hi there
I found your site by accident looking for Udi Adiv in the search bar of
Explorer. As an anti-Zionist Jew I find it encouraging so far. I am
particularly impressed by your mission statement. You sign off simply SAM. Are
you an organisation or an individual?
Anyway I've like what I've seen so far.
Mark
Thanks! Hope you continue to like this site. --Sam
24 Jul 2000
stop calling the idf a terrorist group. you attack, we retaliate. if
someone else ends up getting hurt, its your fault for attacking us in the
firstplace.
The best way to prove that the allegation "Arab attack, Israel retaliates" is a
myth is to look at the chronology of events (not to mention the roots of the conflict).
Let's pick some border, one that is fresh in our minds, say Lebanon and Israel.
Israel violated Lebanon's airspace thousands of times. Now, can you count a
100 times when Hizbollah shelled across the border into Israel? It might be
impossible actually, which tells you, before we even look at any chronology of
attacks and retaliations. Your logic is that for each Lebanese attack there
should be an Israeli retaliation, right? How come the ratio of Israeli actions
against Lebanon is AT LEAST ten times more than a supposed Hizbollah shelling
that started it? I can't figure it out!
Now, let discuss some chronology. Since Israel's occupation of 10% of Lebanon
(called the "Security Zone") in 1985, and up until 1992, the Israeli-Lebanese
border was relatively calm. Then in 1992 Israel attacked --inside Lebanon--
a Hizbollah leader's car, killing him and his entire family. Israel's reason
for the attack: it reserves the right to eliminate "terrorists" because they
are likely to endanger her in the future. (If you find this logic acceptable,
then you should not be bothered by the logic of those Palestinians, Lebanese,
Syrians, etc, who love to see Israel destroyed. After all, Israel is really
threatening their existence.) A similar scenario to the one described takes
place every now and then. But the most popular scenario is when the Lebanese
resistance Hizbollah attacks Israeli-allied forces INSIDE occupied S. Lebanon,
as they have the RIGHT to do according to international law. Israel responds
by bombing Lebanon, civilians, military, schools, ambulances, mosques, hospitals,
anything, under the guise of bombing "suspected hizbollah hideouts" (note the
word suspected). When, say a woman and her six children die, Israel says it's
a mistake, and that she's sorry. Then she does it again. No action is taken
by anyone in the world against Israel. It is only predictable that Hizbollah
responds.
ALMOST NEVER has Hizbollah shelled Israel without Israel first killing and
wounding of Lebanese. Can you disprove that, perhaps by finding a Hizbollah
shelling that was NOT preceded in the previous two days by an Israeli bloody
action inside Lebanon. I shall await anxiously the result of your research,
and I expect you to send me a feedback when you do, right?
Israel has always employed the principal of "retaliating in advance" not to
mention "an eye for 20 eyes", citing, absurdly, the imbalance of Israeli
versus the entire Arab world population as justification, as though that's
an argument. Informative articles about this whole issue that I recommend are
the following by Hussein Ibish, James Ron (ex Israeli soldier) and Israel Shahak.
More on the "Arab attack, Israel retaliates" myth is the case of the Golan Heights,
where Israel provoked Syria repeatedly into shelling it. According to Dayan
"at least 80%" of Syrian shelling of Israel was deliberately provoked by Israel
to justify a later Israeli massive "retaliation".
Bottom line, those who attack Israel are usually people who were dispossessed
by or suffered severely because of her, and were not compensated for the injustice they
suffered at her hands. Those are mainly refugees living close to the border in their
miserable camps, who come back seeking revenge. Actually most of those who tried to
cross the borders into Israel in the fifties were civilians, refugees trying just to
go back to their homes, or collect their crops expropriated by Israel, (see Benny
Morris's Israel's Border Wars). Little did they know that some Argentinian
Jew now lives in their house and calls it "his". Israel usually kills all
"infiltrators", often women and children. The number of those killed in the five years
after the 1948-49 war, is estimated at 5,000 by Morris, if I remember.
Israel's "lust for land" must stop for the conflict to end, and this way the IDF
will not "be forced" to "retaliate" by those annoying refugees who never tire
in asking for something they call their rights.
Sam
22 Jul 2000
You Arabs started this mess by trying to drive them from their land. You
murdered, oppressed, and used every dirty trick possible to force the Jews out,
now you want respect? Get real! You have also murdered innocent people from
other lands, including the United States, for your evil purposes. NONE of you
terrorists deserve to live in a free world. You are worse than animals and
deserve to die for what you have done.
Stop crying and realize free people will not always tolerate you. Only the
harshest treatment by civilized people will put you out of business
Please detail to me how the Arabs started this mess. Is it possible that you still
haven't heard what really went on in the first half of this century? In 1917 when
Balfour issued his declaration there were 24,000 Jews in Palestine (10% of the pop).
Thirty years later the number increased ~25 fold to 600,000 (30% of the pop) all via
immigration against the will of the majority non-Jews. Worse yet, the new incomers,
had a driving ideology behind their endless immigration: the establishment of a "Jewish
state" that would exclude the majority non-Jews, on the land in which they (the Jews)
owned only 7% in 1947. (So even in 1947 it wasn't "their [the Jews'] land", and only
war could make it otherwise.) Can you imagine that population increase via endless
immigration happening in the US, and American's reaction to it?
The first time the Arab countries officially "attacked" in May of 1948 was after the
Jews (as they were known then) began their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians
-- "coincidentally" in line with what their ideology, Zionism, envisioned. The Arab
countries were under tremendous pressure noting the influx of countless Palestinian
refugees into their land fleeing Haganah, Irgun and Stern gang terrorism. THEN came
the Arab INTERVENTION (not attack) -- which provided Israel with the pretext it was
hungry for to justify expanding and then expelling. The war lasted about 10 months
of which the Arabs were on the offensive for the first 3 weeks only, which shows
how pathetic this "attack" was, compared to the "attempt at destroying Israel" version
portrayed in Zionist text books. What could one expect when the Arab armies didn't
total more than 17,000 disorganized, multiply-led, mostly palace guards, facing
60,000 Israelis with 30,000 more on reserve. That imbalance is hidden from you,
and replaced by the irrelevant comparison of the total POPULATION of the Arab world
then at 40 million, facing 600,000 Jews.
Before May 48, HALF of the 1948 refugees were already expelled or terrorized into
fleeing by the Jews, from Jaffa, Haifa, and others. Deir Yassin villagers weren't
so lucky, however. Why did Isrepal not allow them to return in accordance with
internationl AND human right laws, especially since if it didn't cause them to leave,
as it officially states? The Palestinian actions you mention --which seems to me to
be the only "defense" Israel has against its victims-- are REACTIONS of a weak,
oppressed people to their dispossession, expulsion and massacres by their powerful
tormentors and their supporters.
Best
Sam
22 Jul 2000
al we want is peace, let's do it together!!!!!!
adi, tel aviv.
That statement would better describe what a Palestinian might tell an Israeli.
Your/Israeli government's "peace" conditions (sometimes called Barak's "four Nos"
or his "five red lines"), happen to be BASED on continuing the injustice against the
Palestinians. Lack of justice makes peace impossible. ONLY when "you" (Israel)
recognize Israel's original sin, and show "real" interest in resolving it JUSTLY
(return of refugees, withdrawing to June 4th, line, etc.) that you should extend
your hand of peace to the Palestinians. If you agree, then you should've made
that clear in the first place.
Sam
22 Jul 2000
I'm 16 years old from Israel and i want peace.
I have no words to describe this site, i just want to cry.
this website is better then all the nazi websites i found on the web.
this is one of the letters i found in this site:
"the only solution i can think of is to kill every jew muthafucka on the planet
cos they are the lowest form of life in the universe.they should be tortured and
killed in the slowest way possible.my shit is worth more than every jew
muthafucka in the world.its a pity that world war 2 ended when it did cos it
didnt give hitler enough time to finish what he started.fuck every jew and their
mothers.fuck the peace deals.we need to rid the world of the disease known as
judaism.only then will we have peace.
keep up the excellent work with the site and please show this letter as i know a
lot of people who feel the same as i do.ALLAHUAKBAR"
I am a jew. I am a proud jew,
i live in israel and i'm a proud israeli.
Israel is the only light of the middle east surrounded by 10 dictaruric arab
countries. your perpuse is to destroy israel, well let me tell you something
mr. wise guy - u can continue dreaming. and i really don't look forward for your
intresting response.
The anti-Jewish racist response you cite, has rightly angered you, as it did me.
However, you seem to have totally ignored my response to it. Israel's belligerence
against the Arabs and the denial of basic rights to the Palestinians, is surely not
helping end anti-Semitism -- which is a contradictory concept to Zionism, Israel's
founding ideology. Israel claims to speak for Jews across the world. Therefore,
it is understandable --but not justifiable-- that people will associate between
Israel (thus her actions) and the majority of world Jewry. Those who oppose Zionism
and Israel's policies must speak out.
First, the democracy you loud is exclusive to Jews, not to mention that the word
"democracy" is instantly dwarfed by Israel's occupation and oppression of the
Palestinians. Clearly the information presented in this site show that Israel is
anything BUT a "light" of the Middle East, let alone the "only" one. Israel is the
only country in the region founded on a grave original sin against an entire nation.
The anti-Jewish/anti-Israel anger you find among Palestinians and others --which sadly
translates into racism, sometimes-- is not really due to racism per se, but has its
roots in Jewish dispossession of the Palestinians people. On the whole Jews were less
oppressed in Arab countries than they were in Europe. Note how that changed of the
establishment of Israel in 1948. Hating Israel (or "the Jews") and the desire to
destroy it are the only thing a weak Palestinian can do as a reaction to his
dispossession, torture, occupation, curfew, theft of water, etc by the regional
super power that Israel is. In other words, your perceived (thanks to media propaganda)
image of the Palestinians as people who just-want-to-destroy-Israel-for-the-fun-of-it,
is actually a result of Israel's countless attempts at destroying the Palestinians as
people.
So before you can claim pride, as an Israeli, you must first set out to correct the
original sin on which your identity as an Israeli is based. This truth is painful for
Israelis (let alone the Palestinians) and thus would explain your not "look[ing]
forward" to my response.
Sam
22 Jul 2000
Dear Kind Sir
I do NOT recognise a country by the name of Israel. Occupied Palestine
is a place where everyday, the native population are tortured, shot,
jailed and evicted from the their houses, because of their religion.
The IDF are the modern waffen-SS, they are racist and unjust. Hezbollah
bomb a amry target, IDF bombs a pre-school. This kind of behavior is
sickening. The IDF and "Israeli" politicans are merciless animals who
can get away with anything, because they have their hands around the
americans balls. As you stated the death ratio shows that this is a one
way conflict, and Unless countries that have not been corruped by the
Zionist New World Order Cartels, QUICKLY do something to stop these
people, well all is lost for future generations, EVERYWHERE. The world
must confront ZIONISM like it did NAZI'ism and CRUSH it and RIP its heart
out. These people will be the downfall of the free world. Where else can
u get away with killing at will?. In occuped Palesine
Another Oppressed Native Person
From New Zealand
KIA KAHA(stay strong)to my Palestinian Brothers. The world will open its
eyes. Till then Hang on!.
Rangi
17 Jul 2000
Dear honest brave man:
May God bless you.
Please do not forget to keep a back-up copy of all the material on this web site,
in case some one tries to delete this geocities site.
a Palestinian
Your kind words are appreciated, dear friend. Two back-ups are in a safe
and sound place. Thanks for your concern. --Sam
16 Jul 2000
Dear Sam,
I was never interested in the politics of the Middle East, I was never
concerned about the region, and I never comprehended what was occurring. Just
like the majority, I thought that Israel was "Heaven on Earth". I need to thank
the person who introduced me to this complicated issue, who never encouraged me
to take sides but only to use my rationale based on the facts. He also
introduced me to your site. He knows who he is because he is a regular visitor
here. And thank you Sam for clarifying and articulating everything that needs to
be clarified and articulated. Thank you for making everything so much easier to
digest.
I am sure that everyone, including those who condemn this site, is amazed by
how resourceful, complete and accurate it is. I was wondering if you can give us
an estimate of how much time you put into
this page (let's say hours per week). Thank you very much, keep up the wonderful
work.
Alessia
Thank you Alessia for your kind words. As for your question on time spent on
this site, the answer is that it varies greatly. But maintaining it is much
less than the initial set-up, where now the task is searching/adding an article
here and there, and responding to feedbacks from time to time.
Regards,
Sam
11 Jul 2000
hello,
I am very sad becasue it seem that people are fighting and dying for land.
conflict of who did what, you did this and i didn't do that. There is complex
socio-economic issues behind the fighting in the middle east but in the simplest
contest of a child the conflict could be broken down in to this "this is mine,
no it is mine". Israel is a treat to the Arab world becasue it represts a free
modern world in the middle east that is very well off. This is strit contrest
to the most of the middle east nations. However, israel is also in a war path
to regain in thier minds their ancent birth right lands, by removing the living
occupants. It is very funny as an outsider trying to understand this conflict,
Both jewdiam nad islam believe in the same God, both believe they came from
Shara and Abraham (like chritains, islam has its roots in jewdaims), so when
they fight and kill each other, would break their ancentors hearts. After all
the politics are gone, would it really matter !
whose living next to you, long as they are nice. In the end everyone will die
and land will go back to the right full owner, GOD. Long as we live we borrow
land from Him, how poor tents we have been. peace should be everybody's goal
but in the end to achieve peace comprise is nessceary from both sides and
silence those mad men who will bomb and kill children in buses. will God want
people go to war and hate and distory his land with bombs? anyhow, you should
check your site if you are really writting this with all the facts, that it is
unbises and that no fault lyes with in arbic world and that jews are all up to
that. i wish peace, i have not seen it in my life time. Please, as adults i
would like to say to my kids, i have tried to all i could to give you peace in
your life time. instead, i watch the world burn in hate and ingronce. life is
a gift don't weasted on hate
this message from kid for peace
It is nice to seek peace. True peace however, must be preceded by basic justice,
otherwise, "peace" will be a disguised injustice, a "lack of conflict" repression,
enforced by firepower and military might. To understand what justice involves,
one must understand, first, what the conflict is about. To think only of vague,
general "peace", without having spent the time to learn, and then address, the
real issues, is a bit naive.
The Middle East conflict is not just about two religions fighting. After all,
Zionism, as are most Israelis, is a secular ideology. Religion is secondary.
The conflict might involve some "complex socio-economic issues," BUT there is
also a basic reason for the fighting -- namely, the injustice of uprooting of
one people by another. PERIOD. By not addressing this core issue, in fact by
deliberately diverting your attention, as an observer, from the real causes,
the media is the reason you think that the conflict is about two religions
fighting over land, or two immature guys shouting "this is mine, no it is mine".
>Israel is a treat to the Arab world becasue it represts a free modern world
>in the middle east that is very well off. This is strit contrest to the
>most of the middle east nations.
That might be a factor, but it is a very minor one compared to, again, the real
root cause I mentioned above. Pre-civil-war Lebanon is an example of a modern
non-Muslim ARAB state, with relative freedom of press. Why wasn't it seen as a
"threat"?
>However, israel is also in a war path to regain in thier minds their
>ancent birth right lands, by removing the living occupants.
As I mentioned, most Israelis are secular. What you say apply to the minority
Zionist-religious and some secular. The basic thrust of Zionism was mainly to
get a land for Jews, where they would be safe from persecution, (sounds nice,
doesn't it?). It was NOT to regain ancient Israel per se. That was mostly a
convenient argument used to further their "legitimacy" and sphere of support
to some Zionist-religious Jews and to some fundamentalist Christian.
>to achieve peace comprise is nessceary from both sides
Palestinians have already compromised beyond what's imaginable: 77% of what used
to be mandate Palestine is now Israel, from which Palestinians were ethnically
cleansed and 400 of their villages leveled. Negotiations today limited to the
remaining 23% called the West Bank and Gaza. Even the water of WB is mostly
--81%-- is stolen by Israel which helps settlers fill their pools, while
Palestinians thirst and their crops die. This is like someone stealing your
house, and now you are being asked to negotiate only over the garage, and which
parts of it you can live in. And then, someone asks you to compromise even
further: you have to be "realistic", they tell you, and you must "compromise" by
letting go of parts of that garage.
Palestinians have already endured half a century of occupation, and denial of
basic human rights, and many refugees have lived all that time behind barbed wire,
tearfully looking at their unreachable once-homes, as some Russian Jew comes in
("return" in Zionist/Israeli lingo) to lay claim to that home as "his". It
is time for Israel to compromise, and it has to be a compromise on the major
issues of refugees, settlements, water, Jerusalem. That is if it is sincerely
interested in true peace, not a muscle-enforced one. Sadly, most of these issue
fall under Barak's so-called red-lines or "NOs". So, peace is not anywhere near,
I am afraid.
>anyhow, you should check your site if you are really writting this with all the
>facts, that it is unbises and that no fault lyes with in arbic world and that
>jews are all up to that.
First, no one can claim that "no fault" lies with any side in any conflict.
After all, both sides are human. One can, however, name an overall victim
(Palestinians) and overall victimizer (Israel) for the Middle East conflict.
Second, my site's one-sidedness --IN FAVOR OF THE UNDERDOG VICTIMS-- is openly
stated: after all, presenting the Arab side IS its mission. In so doing, my aim
is to balance the endless media one-sidedness for Israel. That pro-Israel
propaganda flooding of our media outlet, actually, might be the reason behind
your "shock" at my site. I notice hints of the effect of this propaganda on you
when you refer to "those mad men who will bomb and kill children in buses", ie,
Palestinian terrorists, but not the Israeli terrorism that PRECEDED/CAUSED it.
>instead, i watch the world burn in hate and ingronce. life is a gift don't
>weasted on hate
Your insinuation about a "hate-filled" site is a direct result of your
unfamiliarity with the real issues. Speaking out while not understanding really
what's going on, adds more insult to injury to the victims of the conflict. I
encourage you to earnestly begin learning about this conflict in detail. This
will enable you to understand the full requirements for true peace. Otherwise,
you will continue to fall prey to propaganda traps. I can recommend all the
books you want, and most of them were written by Jews. (First book might be
Hirst's 1977 "Gun and Olive Branch", followed by Chomsky's 1983, 1999 "Fateful
Triangle," then Palumbo's 1991 "Palestinian Catastrophe," then Finkelstein's
1995 "Image and reality". Of course there are more books that can fit anywhere
in between, but you can start with these.)
11 Jul 2000
THIS IS FULL WITH LIES. WE ARE IN ISRAEL SUFFERED FROM YOUR
TERRORISM (SHAIDS)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 Jul 2000
Hi sam,
From what I understood you live in the US. You live in much safer place then
Israel. I live in a dangerous place. for example 5 years ago when one of the
palestinian trrorists group (the one you inecent) "Hammas" bombed a bomb in big
shoping mall in Tel-Aviv("Dizingof Center") I was 200 meters (600 feet) from the
bomb, I so the bodies and the horror. 3 years ago a bomb was bombed in "Apropo
restaraunt" neer my father job. So dont say that we the Israelies are racist.
murders and etc. Visit in Israel and you'll find that we are tye opposite to
what you think and belive. I think that you should that many of the palestinian
that you said that dont get rights like israelis. You Are right they dont get
because live under the authority of Arafat and his council. They have there own
ministers, TV, Harbor, international airfield, radio, internet, highly trained
POLICE FORCE, plastinian NSA (the palastinian SHABAC) and etc. so dont say that
they dont get rights like Israelis because th!
ey dont get there rights from Israel but from Arafat. I know that most of the
Israeli Arabs (they think that they are palastinians) prefer to live under
Israel and not Under Arafat(they economical situation is much better then the
one thay would have gpt under Arafat).
Another thing The "WEST BANK". we didnt conqured it from the palestinians we
took it from Jordan (The arab they we have good relationships) . Before the war
that we conqred the WEST BANK, we asked from Jorden to stay out of the war but
they entered to war and you see the results.
Another thing we entered to lebanon because Arafat and his trrorists were there
and send rockets to israel and bombed big shoping centers .So we entered to
clear south lebnon from terrorists (BTW Arafat trained in lebanon the IRA, thats
right)
so stop this lies and tell the truth
alexc****@yahoo.com
Alex from Israel
The lack of safety you suffer from is a direct result of Israel's injustice against
the Palestinians. The terrorism you suffer from is the minute, limited and
impotent REACTION of a weak adversary, to a much more potent, on-going and serious
Israeli terrorism -- uprooting, dispossession, torture, exploitation of labor,
theft of water, closure, curfews, etc. The terrorism that Palestinians endure
is many, many orders of magnitude bigger the one you suffer from. Thus, and more
importantly, the solution to end Palestinian terrorism against you is not really
a secret: you just have to eliminate its CAUSE -- Israeli terrorism against
Palestinians and Arabs. Like many, you have fallen victim to a propaganda that
reversed "cause" and "effect", and vice versa.
Furthermore, to quantify the terrorism you have been suffering from, from the one
"you" have been inflicting, let's do a body count!! From 1967 until today around 700
Israelis fell victims to terrorism (from all Palestinian factions: Hamas, Habash,
Hawatmeh, Abu Nidal and other Abu's.) Compare that to Israel's "anti-terrorism"
campaign in Lebanon: at least 20,000 deaths, which includes Sharon's massacre
of 2000 Palestinian refugees in Sabra and Shatila.
On the cause and effects issue, if you were to observe the pattern of Hamas
terrorism, you would note how it changed DRASTICALLY following the settler
Baruch Goldstein's massacre of 29 praying Palestinians, and Israel lack of
action after it. Not to mention allowing for six years the shrine for
the "saint" and "hero" Goldstein. (Had Goldstein been Palestinian, however, his
family's house would be demolished, let alone his shrine). Count the terrorist
actions and deadliness before and after that massacre and you'll begin to
formulate a more accurate Cause and Effect sequence and thinking. Does Israel clamp
down on settlers and disarm them, noting that many killings, terrorism, and water
theft were committed by settlers in the past? No. Does Israel decide to end its
illegal settlement colonies, a major cause of the conflict? No. In fact, it
has increased settlement, by about 50% since the beginning of the "peace"
negotiations. "Peace-lover" Barak has surpassed Netanyahu in allowing the
expansion of settlements. Has Israel decided to end its confiscation policy,
its theft of water, its occupation, ..... etc. No is the answer across the board.
But the whole terror started with Israel's major sin in 1948 (when Arafat was a
teenager, 15 years before there was a PLO) and Zionism's exclusivist ideology 50
years before that, against the Palestinian: namely, uprooting them from the land
you now call yours. Until that issue is resolved JUSTLY, you'll continue to live
in a "dangerous place." (Of course, the real dangerous place is where Palestinians
live under occupation, in fear of demolition, indefinite and without-trial arrest,
etc.) I must have gone through this issue about a million times on this page.
Please look somewhere below for a more detailed answer.
>I think that you should that many of the palestinian
>that you said that dont get rights like israelis. You Are right they dont get
>because live under the authority of Arafat and his council.
Palestinians fall under different category as far as who rules them. The majority
live outside of Palestine/Israel in exile. The remaining are two groups, one
living as Israeli citizens in Israel, and about 2.5-3 mil in WB and Gaza under
Arafat. Those who live in Israel are discriminated against as "non-Jews" in
jobs and allocation of funds to their towns, schools, etc. Those living under
Arafat are being mistreated by Arafat's new dictatorship -- under Israeli
pressure to muffle the population who is rightly angry at Israel's continuing
occupation of their land under a sheep's clothing called the peace process.
Likud and Netanyahu were honest enough to recognize Arafat as Israel's subcontractor,
doing the torturing for them, and subduing any signs of uprising, while Israel
builds more settlements and confiscates more land. In short, Israel used Arafat
and Oslo as a cover for it to continue occupying and colonizing Palestinian land,
and continue denying refugee rights, continue settlements and water theft, continue
occupying and expanding Jerusalem into the WB.
>Another thing The "WEST BANK". we didnt conqured it from the palestinians we
>took it from Jordan (The arab they we have good relationships) .
West Bank was administered by Jordan due to a secret collusion-pact between pre-state
Israel (Ben-Gurion and Co.) and Transjordan's King Abdullah, specifically to prevent
the creation of a Palestinian state. Aside from the technicality --which you, and
other supporters of Israel resort to, to deny Palestinians their identity and basic
human rights-- the population of the West Bank was, and still is Palestinians, not
Jordanian.
>Before the war that we conqred the WEST BANK, we asked from Jorden to stay out
>of the war but they entered to war and you see the results.
Jordan had a defense pact with Egypt, AND Israel knew that. By attacking Egypt
Israel hoped to induce a Jordanian reaction. Like the Suez war and the provocative
massive Israeli raid on Gaza preceding it (why didn't Ben-Gurion mention that
raid in his memoir?), which was clearly aimed at provoking Nasser, the 1967 war
was preceded by a massive raid by Israel on the West Bank town of Samu in Nov 66,
not to mention the April 67 raid on Syria, in the suburbs of Damascus killing a
100 civilians.
Aside from the reason of why Israel conquered the West Bank, what followed is more
telling. I will put it in the form of questions for you, to stimulate a thinking
outside of the the propaganda frame one is sometimes locked in. Why did Israel
immediately begin building settlement colonies in violation of the 4th Geneva
Convention, if all it was concerned about was repelling the Jordanian army and
security? Why did Israel begin demolishing Palestinian homes after 1967, upwards
of 17,000 within ten years, if her reason for occupying the West Bank (security)
is true? Why did Israel begin denying residency rights to Palestinians in E. Jerusalem,
thinning out the non-Jewish population slowly while pumping in Jews and transforming
the city from Palestinian to Jewish? Why did Israel implement repression, torture
and closures on the West Bank, and stole Palestinian water (today Israel takes
80% of WB water while Palestinians thirst)? Could it be that Israel just wanted
that resourceful land, not to mention E. Jerusalem, Hebron, and other Jewish holy
places (to give it "Jewish" legitimacy), and hence the Jordan "attack" was more of
a pretext?
Only when you start THINKING in a logical and humane way, placing yourself in
a Palestinian's shoes, and analyzing, independently from the sea of propaganda
around you, that you'll truly understand what the conflict is all about, instead
of the "how many you and me killed" and hence what the solution entails.
Best
Sam
5 Jul 2000
Once again, great job Sam. You are well informed and make allot of sense. i
congratulate you on your logic, patience and above all, your eagerness to shed
light on the unjustices of the area. I have been reading the feedbacks twice a
week. i have two points i would like to pinpoint:
1- i am yet to read an "israeli" or "jewish" or "pro jewish" contribution that
wasn't racist / hateful and / or superficial. the depth of the resources on your
site pushes the well informed / educated "pro israeli" to shy away from
contributing to this forum. facts are facts, and the truth could be hidden but
never changed.
2- i am also yet to read a "pro arab" contribution that focuses on what must be
done. all we read about is what happened and how brutal the enemy was. what is
missing in this forum (as well as in the Arab world in general) is a solid
united long term plan that will eventually bring back the rights, the lives and
the dignity of the true victims. unfortunately, it ain't possible to plan or
execute such a plan. it may require, above all, a new set of leaders in the arab
world.
I salute your eagerness and devotion. Good luck.
Sam
Thank you friend for your support.
Re. your first point: I too expected some more intellectual and serious
challenges to the content of the site. What I got instead --and I do list ALL
feedbacks I get, except VERY few irrelevant/redundant ones-- is racist and
misinformed ones. Maybe what you said about the "well informed" is true.
Re. your second point: What you say about Arabs is true in general. New
Arab voices are beginning to emerge, however, to eloquently articulate
the Arab case. Previously these were scared off by the powerful pro-Israel
community in high places, and the deeply-entrenched Israeli propaganda about
the whole conflict.
Things are changing more and more, and people are getting more informed about
the situation, which is a good step to help end the injustice. Having a united
plan to end the injustice on part of the Arab world and leaders is good but is
not necessarily enough, (not to mention that many Arab leaders have collapsing
countries that they need to worry about.) The main thing, I believe, is to
lobby American policy makers, like the pro-Israel community is doing, as well as
make media contacts and write letters to the editors and OpEds. To do so, one
must have a solid understanding of facts before (s)he can inform others. I
tried to help with that part by building this site.
Many people are still scared of being identified as Arabs or pro-Arabs, however,
because of so much inculcated stereotypes and hate from hollywood and others
against the Arab community.
Best and thanks for writing.
Sam
4 Jul 2000
Dear Sam,
I have nothing to do with this conflict. I am english, and always thaught that
the victim of this conflict was Israel. One day a friend gave me the adress of
your site , I decided to take a look. What I read that day last year on your site
shocked me and sent shivers down my spine. How can things like this happen in todays
so called Modern Global Community.
The acts comminted against the Lebaneese and Palestinians is "INHUMANE" and unjust.
When I read through the feedback section , It shows me how animalistic these people
really are. Control of the world media can do allot for your Image. But sam maybee not
in our lifetimes all of the Zionist leaders will appear in court and face the UNITED
NATIONS and large prison sentances and perhaps death for their crimes against humanity.
Then the largley blind world will stare in amazment (as most of the people in the world
are sheep and dont know jack about jack). Untill then fight on. Your struggle and courage
is a Inspiration to all "FREEDOM of SPEECH" lobbyists and supporters, WORLDWIDE.
Because a religion is 'surposedly' gods chosen one, does it justify the people of that
religion, to kill, steal and lie to acheive their goals. Witch is the liberation of all
land that Jews have ever lived on. And to eliminate , one way or another the people that
live there today.
God Bless you Sam.
Nick R****, England
Thank you for writing, dear sir. I am honored this site has benefited you and others
in seeing through the mountains of propaganda, that Israel and its supporters have
covered the truth with. Sadly, I doubt any of Israel's leaders will stand in front
of a representative world body to answer for their crimes. The world body itself has
put its interests before human rights of others, and is fearful of the powerful New
World Orders of Washington, where the law of the jungle of might-is-right is the law
of the land. Israel is supported by this mighty ruler of the jungle-world. So, if
justice does take place, it won't be in our life time.
Best
Sam
4 Jul 2000
I get nervous of people that know everything. Mostly they abuse that
'total' knowledge in the name of their god. Just look at the historie of the
dark middle ages.
I certainly don't consider myself to know everything. What I do know and understand
are only the basics of the Arab-Israeli conflict, of who the victims and victimizers
are. And clarifying this basic facts is the mission of this site. My God is one of
human rights -- for BOTH sides of the conflict. However, I am pushing the case for
only one side, the Palestinians, because it is the weaker and continually victimized
one. The other side, which happens to be the powerful of the two AND the victimizer,
has been able, via deception, connections in media and high places, misrepresentation
and lies, to make its fictional case factual, to turn the Palestinian victims into
victimizers in the eyes of the world. Aside from this dangerous propaganda and lies
spread by Israel and its cronies, this conflict --basically of one people coveting
another's land, then conquering it and dispossessing the locals-- is not much different
from "dark middle ages" ones you are talking about. The only difference from your
assessment is that it is ISRAEL not "I" who are the victimizers; all "we" are trying
to do here is end that victimization.
Basic justice and reparation must take place before any solution to the Middle East
conflict is reached. But one will not KNOW what this justice entails unless (s)he
removes the layers of propaganda first and then learn the basic facts. This is
where this site fits in. After understanding the truth, the solution will be clear.
Best,
Sam
4 Jul 2000
One day your creator will tell you that you only preached hate and stupidity.
Just hope he will blame it on stupidity and not on hate.
Why are you so sure this will happen to me? By all means, please let me know where
you found hate --let alone stupidity-- on this site so I can remove it promptly.
Sam
4 Jul 2000
As an observer on the sideline, I have to commend you for the insightfulness
that your web site provides from the various links you have relating to the
mentioned articles and excerpts posted.
I would like to point that I disagree that military or any form of conflict
resolves any disputes, but should the matter require, it would best serve all
fronts to exhaust the last possible means of achieving peaceful and righteous
resolutions. Wars purpose is to serve only it?s own goals: WAR! In a nuclear
world, the true enemy in war cannot be destroyed.
Living in a world of chaos and disorder like the one we have allowed ourselves
inherit, I choose to change the path of the past I am on so that the future will
bring sour less fruits for the generations to come.
Of all the wonders man has achieved during his existence, Science, Art,
Technology, Communication, etc. he has yet to find the enlightened path he so
desperately seeks to communicate his thoughts clearly. Instead of looking
outwardly for solutions, we need to start looking within and ask our souls
weather we should allow others to control us for the sake of material rewards or
wither away like leaves off a tree for the better good of the future.
Thanking you for reading,
An Observer of Life.
3 Jul 2000
Your site's name is "truth and justice in the middle east" but you
forgot one minor detail.Israel is a small part of the middle east.The Arab world
is the larger part.A question for you.Can you name ONE Arab country with full
democracy and equel rights to women,non Muslims and free elections? (not the
kind in Egypt where Mubarak wins 99% of the vote).Just one country.The Arab
world has most of the brutal dictators in world like Assad,Sadam and
Kadaphi,right.Did you know that Arab have more rights in Israel (they have
parliament members)than in any Arab country.Lebanese were killed 10 times more
in the civil war in Lebanon than by Israelis.
Actually, the subtitle, which you must've missed, clarifies what the title
--with the few words allowed it-- doesn't. It is clearly stated below the title
on the main/home page: "The Case Against Israel and the Destruction of Iraq;
Facts Ignored or Manipulated by Western Media".
>name ONE Arab country with full democracy and equel
>rights to women, non Muslims and free elections?
Bringing up the well-known totalitarianism of the Arab states has become a smokescreen
for Israel's defenders --for a lack of a better argument-- to divert attention
from Israel's grave sins against the Palestinians and Arabs. To understand how
ridiculous this smokescreen argument is, try applying it to Apartheid S. Africa:
Replace Israel (appropriately) with the white Apartheid government, Palestinians
with south african blacks, and Arab states with neighboring African dictatorships.
Now try: "Can you name ONE African country with full democracy,.." as a defense
line for Apartheid. Doesn't work, does it?
In short, Arab/Palestinian non-democratic status doesn't justify their mistreatement/
enslavement and the theft of their land and property by Israel. Note that "local
backwardness" argument was used by colonialists in previous few centuries.
>Did you know that Arab have more rights in Israel (they
>have parliament members) than in any Arab country
Did you know that a similar argument was used by some slave-masters to silence the
complaints of their slaves? The common denominator missing, of course, is that
how much rights an individual has must be judged relative to the environment where
that individual lives. "Israeli Arabs" --i.e. the small minority of Palestinians
who were not ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948, and who are Israelis by
citizenship-- have LESS rights than other Israelis living around them, who happen
to be classified as "Jews". Even if we accept your argument for the "Israeli Arabs"
rights, what remains is the MAJORITY Palestinians, who were ethnically cleansed
and who aren't Israeli citizens. These often have less rights than their bretheren
in Israel, and, to use your criterion, have less rights in comparison to their
fellow Arabs in Arab countries -- primarily thanks to Israel.
>Lebanese were killed 10 times more in the civil war in Lebanon than by Israelis.
So? And? Does this mean Israel can still kill 9-times more than it has before it
can be faulted? Diverting the issue and changing the subject with such ridiculous
arguments, might work in a safe pro-Israel forum, but it won't get you far in a
non-Israel-propaganda environment. However, ironically, one of the main causes of
the Lebanese civil war is .... yes (indirectly) Israel?!? Or rather, the Palestinian
refugees in Lebanon, who were made refugees -- ie, ethnically cleansed-- by Israel.
Nor can one discount the fact that destabilizing Lebanon and installing a puppet
Maronite government has long been planned by Israel (see Moshe Sharett Diaries).
Sam
29 Jun 2000
You are a sorry piece of an Arab apologist. The contents on your site is about
one step away from Holocaust denial material on some White Pride site.
"Alliance between Nazism and Zionism" ??? You're embarassing yourself. Strange
it's not mentionned how the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the war years in Berlin
helping Hitler eliminate Jews and raise Waffen SS batallions from Muslim sectors
of Bosnia.
In any case, you're pathethic, hiding this site in the nice anonymousity of
Geocities because anywhere else they'd make a monkey out of you.
Good luck with rewriting history in the best Arab tradition and send my best
greetings to Adolf, 'cause you'll see plenty of him in hell where you're headed.
>You are a sorry piece of an Arab apologist.
Or you have been lied to about Israel and Zionism.
>The contents on your site is about one step away from Holocaust
>denial material on some White Pride site. "Alliance between Nazism
>and Zionism" ??? You're embarassing yourself.
The fact that some White Pride and Holocaust denial sites use the information
about Zionist-Nazi alliance to their ends, doesn't change the factual
nature of this information. Nor does your unfamiliarity with it, or it
being incredible.
Indeed, Zionists (e.g. Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky and the Stern Gang) did ally
themselves with the Nazis/other fascist dictators before and during WWII. Shocking
as it may be (and IT IS) but it is true. After all, the goals of both were
similar: remove Jews from Germany. Without anti-Semitism, Zionism wouldn't
have enough ideological power to sustain its existence. Ben-Gurion is on
record saying that he would opt for saving half the Jews, provided they
go to Israel, versus saving them all but have them go elsewhere. So, he
and other Zionists looked at Jews as number boosters against the Palestinian
population with their high birth-rate.
There are several books on that, one by Lenni Brenner: "Zionism in the Age of the
Dictators" and another by Edwin Black (?) "The Transfer Agreement". An easier
path would be for you to take a deep breath, go back to the "Zionism I" page on
this site, and read the articles on that issue. It is extremely tough to change
one's mind about an emotional issue such as this, especially if one has been lied
to all that time. But if the facts point to an unexpected/undesired/unpleasant
path, one must lay his emotions aside and follow that path.
>Strange it's not mentionned how the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the war years in
>Berlin helping Hitler eliminate Jews and raise Waffen SS batallions from Muslim
>sectors of Bosnia.
Not strange at all. The mission of this site is to expose the infinite crimes
committed by Israel in the name of saving Jews from anti-Semitism. It's mentioned
in the mission statement and about a dozen times here. You can also see my comments
about the Mufti elsewhere in this feedback page. But whether he did or didn't ally
himself with the Nazi (and he did, mostly to undermine British influence in Palestine)
doesn't change the Zionist-Nazi alliance fact. I personally don't have much respect
for the Mufti, by the way, nor did the vast majority of Palestinians in 1947 (99.7%)
respond to his call to Sacred Struggle against Jews. Neither does his alliance justify
what the Zionists did/continue to do to the Palestinians.
>hiding this site in the nice anonymousity of Geocities because anywhere else
>they'd make a monkey out of you.
You mean limit my freedom of speech? Shut the messenger because they can't refute
the message? Anyone who fights for justice for the tormented Palestinians has to be
familiar with that. Indeed, in many circles where Zionist interest groups have
influence my site will not be allowed. On Israel and Zionism, it seems that only
propaganda is permitted, thanks to many influential people and organizations who
support Israel, RIGHT OR WRONG. Anyone who objects to Israeli treatment of Palestinians
is immediately an "anti-Semite" and "supporter of terrorists". Such methods of silencing
criticism unfavorable Israel are all too common. Our policy-makers have their coffers
filled with pro-Israel money so they can't open their mouth, and many of our networks are
owned or operated by pro-Israel individuals: Murdoch (Fox), Eisner (Disney/ABC), Rosenthal
Safire, Friedman (New York Times), Zukerman (US News), Peretz (New Republic), are but few
examples.
The Internet is the only thing Zionism's tentacles couldn't control (so far), and it is
the only means to help you wake up and see the truth, which is presently burried under
mountains of propaganda that your letter above reflect.
>Good luck with rewriting history in the best Arab tradition
Actually some of the best rewriting of Israeli/Zionist history is being done by
Jews/Israelis. Lenni Brenner who wrote about Zionist-Nazi Zionist-Fascist alliance
is one example. Many of the articles in this site are by Jewish sources. Check out
Norman Finkelstein's monumental works (Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine
Conflict), not to mention Noam Chomsky's, Israel Shahak's and Alfred Lilienthal's.
You can also check out books by Israeli historians: Ilan Pappe, Tom Segev, Benny
Morris, Avi Shlaim. They all proved that the truth is much farther from the Israeli
version of events, and much closer to the Arab one.
Good Luck,
Sam
29 Jun 2000
Who are you. It is not at all clear who, if anybody, you represent.
Are you an organization, an individual?
Yitzhak ben R.
I represent myself. --Sam
26 Jun 2000
Thank you for a wonderful site. An oasis in the desert, really.
One thing: if you have time and feels to do so ... why don't work on the layout
of the texts. So they become more "reading-friendly" for the eyes. Shorter
lines, more line space in the articles and bigger letters.
Who are u?
Greetingsd from Stockholm - Sweden
Ammar M.
Thank you Ammar. I would like to improve this site, and I have (if you saw
it two year ago you'll know what I mean.) But improving the looks usually
means time off searching for and adding valuable info, and I would hate
to do that.
Best, Sam
22 Jun 2000
Sam,
I read most of the feedback and your responses to it. I see that your
FACT-BACKED site has irked a lot of Israel's friends. I bet anything, they were
spoonfed by the likes of the ADL, ZOA, AJC and AIPAC to send you outraged
emails. In the case of the "concerned Canadian" who thought there was only 1%
truth, I really laughed. These zionists just don't get it. You backed EVERY
claim with solid data, articles from the Israeli press, quotes and comments from
prominent American Jews, testimony from ex-politicians, historical facts, etc---
everything is rigorously checked and documented, and still, the obscene mouths
cannot but spew a lethargy of pathetic tirades and excercises in futile hollow
arguments.
This has always been their tactics: Label, curse, scream... but NEVER engage in
an intellectual debate by using logic and common sense. They know they cannot
win by argument alone (read the "anti-Semite" label levelled at anyone who
criticises Israel), and I challenge anyone who reads this web site to refute its
hard facts with logical discourse and facts, not emotions and obscenity.
Sam, you deserve a Nobel Prize for defending the truth!
Samy
Thank you Samy for your very kind comments, praise and encouragement. What you
say about the tactics of some in the pro-Israel community is very true. But
what goes up ...
Best,
Sam
22 Jun 2000
This is THE BEST SITE ON ZIONISM EVER!!!!
Keep up the good work, and have great courage!
zionism will eventually die!
20 Jun 2000
Nazrala
cus ouchtack ya maniak !!!
fuck you
[From an Israeli address]
19 Jun 2000
This is an incredible site!!!
Why don't you have an official host
like www.zionismexposed.com or something close.
14 Jun 2000
Fine webpage. That's democracy. There should represented be all fronts and all
kind of opinions in our society. There is a certain degree of paranoia everytime
somebody from media or public wants to uncover anything wrong in jewish or
israeli activities at all. But
unfortunately (for jewish people) this shrieking paranoia is only increasing the
number of really annoyed people. Everytime I do read
some hysterical articles (last time yesterdays cplumn in USA TODAY from
intelligent ,rich but also very impertinent and arkward Mr. Ben Stein) accusing
the entire world of cruel antisemitism I start to think over if the jews don't
have got a really big part of their own to blame for certain uncomfortable
feelings towards them in everydays life. If for instance I am beeing stupid
arrogant and impertinent and I'll be slapped in face I'd be never blaming
Moslems, Jews, or fanatic Christians but only me or certain particular persons.
Finally,
there is 5% jews in USA, but USA politics and life in so called "HIGH society"
looks like there are 80% of population in USA only JEWS. And therefore I don't
really understand the hysteria and paranoia of couple of them, because they
probably never have lived in harter conditions to experience the real life, the
real, hatred and real cincerity or warmth among common people regardless of
beliefs.
I am 30 ,network appl. specialist
And I am not Moslem, nor JEW ,nor fanatic Christian.
4 Jun 2000
I love this site, as Lebanese, I'm really impressed that there are some
americans who are intersted in the truth Keep it up
XXX
I am an Arab-American, to be precise. --Sam
3 Jun 2000
i wish you die you fucking assholls
i wish you will get your wives rapied
isreal is the strongest nation in the middle east and we left south
lebanon so we can atack you. you wouldn't dare to act against isreal. i wish the
surien will leave you to kill one each other the "sunim" , "shiaim" , muslems
and cristians
1 Jun 2000
if israel got out of lebanon, you have to live her alone, don't you?
The reason "I am not leaving Israeli alone" is not because "she" was in
Lebanon. Israel has committed a grave injustice against the Palestinians,
that continues today. That injustice happens to be *THE* cause of the
entire Arab-Israeli conflict.
Even if Israel's sins were only against Lebanon, then withdrawal won't cut
it. Israel has directly killed upwards of 20,000 people there, mostly
civilians, with cluster, phosphoric, and implosion bombs, and destroyed
part of the country's infrastructure. It committed massacres, took innocent
hostages, and ran a torture camp. All in an attempt to wipe out the
Palestinians as people with rights --by international law-- to live on the
land where Israel was established as a country. The Lebanese civil war was
partially triggered by the existence of Palestinians who were made refugees by
Israel. That war has killed 150,000 people there. So, as a minimum, Israel
needs to pay reparations; it must compensate the Lebanese people for the
destruction and death it wreaked on their helpless country, and apologize for
it, publicly. Kind of like what Germany has been doing for the Jews.
Of course, after Lebanon comes Israel's prime sin -- the one it committed,
and continues to commit against the Palestinians. A sin that it refuses to
fix in any just way .... So, it seems that I "will NOT be leaving Israel
alone" for a long time.
Sam
31 May 2000
I hate all the jew
please send me more info to :
mikelangel@**********.com
10x
one day we will kill them all
See response to previous poster.
27 May 2000
Dear All,
I understand that an eye for an eye will cause the world to be blind -
people have died and will continue to do so whilst the 'peace process'
is still under way. The Jews perhaps the minority have done to the
Arabs what Hitler did to them - make them refugee, rape their sisters,
daughters and mothers, agression, bomb innocent civilians, and general
present a mirror image of that evil which nearly obliterated them (the only
anti-dote to this disease)
Today, 50 years on, they do not realsie that they have become this
monster, recreating the Holocaust. Sympathy for the Jews is over-rated.
My personal opinion would be to destroy completely the 'State of Isreal',
eradicate all signs of Judaism on this earth including the elderly
Jewish woman and the new born Jewish plague and get wild dogs to rape their
sisters, mothers and daughters.
Anyone professing the slightest inclination in favour of Jews should
suffer a similiar fate.
Give the Jews a taste, correction a 'spoonful' of their own medicine.
Some-one with views who some may call sick, others may call a solution.
Hitler would agree with you. I sincerely hope there aren't many of you
in this world.
26 May 2000
Dear Sam,
What is most shocking in reading these letters from your critics is the foul
language that is so often used. It's as if they cannot argue the overwhelming
evidence that you have gathered, so they resort to name calling.
It reminds me a little of some of the pro-serb/anti-Albanian comments I had seen
posted on websites during the Kosovo war. What characterized the majority of
those messages was the violent and obscene language. I even remember seeing one
of those types of posts on the web site of Senator Boxer from California. The
writer made some vulgar, perverted and sexually suggestive comments to her. It
was the first time I had ever seen anyone talk that way to a United States
senator. Of course, many innocent Serb people suffered in that conflict, and
you have to feel sorry for them. But that type of language coming from Serb
supporters didn't really help their cause, either. (Did you know that Ariel
Sharon took Milosovic's side in that conflict? Why is that not surprising?)
So don't feel too bad when you read those types of comments. If anything, it
just reflects poorly on the writers themselves, especially those who are
claiming the "land" on the basis of being the "chosen people." They themselves
defeat their own arguments when they use such filthy language.
Sincerly,
A friend
Thank you friend for your support --Sam
25 May 2000
Hi, Sam
Thanks for your informative WEB site. I was glad to find more about situation in
Lebanon. I also have a question: do you (personally) believe that Hezbollah will
tolerate the existance of Israel if (hypotetically speaking) Israel will return
all the lands? (Gaza, Golan Heights, Samaria etc.) I know this is not likely to
happen, but what I'm trying to bring up here is that the TRUE goal of Hezbollah
and few other similar "organizations" is a destruction of country of Israel and
its people (remember that slogan "we'll throw jews to the sea!"). I realize that
there ARE some moderate arab leaders who truly want to live in peace with the
state of Israel, but they are certainly in minority. I'm jewish, living in
States, who has friends and relatives in Israel (and not all of them are
Zionists, trust me). In no way am I willing arabs and palestinians to suffer,
and in fact, I know lots of Israeli citizens of arabic decent who are lovely
people. I also know that not all of the arabs l!
iving in Israel share the views and goals of Hezbollah. How would you explain
that fact?? I will be really happy to hear from you! If you are able to
"persuade" me that Hezbollah is non-terroristic organization, willing to live in
peace with all the neighbors (incl. Israelis) once/when they have all the land
issues settled - I'll be REALLY happy. Hope to see your respond soon!
Good luck,
George
Boston USA.
Dear George
Thank you for writing. You are commended for sincerity and desire for peace.
I have a similar question for you -- in response to yours: "do you believe
Israel has a TRUE desire to live in peace --based on justice-- with the
Palestinians/Hizbollah/Arab neighbors?"
As much as it is uneasy for you to accept whether Hizbollah resistance
in turn have acted on cue from Israeli leaders-- is interested in genuine
peace with Israel, likewise, it the uneasy for me to accept that Israel is truly interested
in peace. The difference is that Israel's conquest came first, THEN Hizbollah's
resistance second, which clearly gives more support to my distrust of Israel
than your distrust of Hizbollah.
Remember, Hizbollah is a byproduct of Israel's bloody aggression on Lebanon.
Before 1982 there were no Hizbollah -- whose activity were totally sanctioned
by International law as resistance to occupation, not terrorism. The same
international law that condemned Israel more than any other state in history
for its activities in Lebanon and other occupied territories.
So, it is because of so much media slant and bias that you are asking me
the wrong question, of whether Hizbollah --normal human beings with
similar genuine desire for justice and living peacefully as Israelis--
instead of Israel, wants truly to live in peace with its enemy.
To understand the origin of the statement "we'll throw Jews to the sea!" you
have to really understand the history of the conflict and perhaps some Arab culture.
First, the reality today is that it is Israel that "has thrown the Palestinian
to the sea"! With the majority of Palestinians being refugees festering somewhere
and dispossessed, oppressed, and denied basic justice, this statement is not an
exaggeration. So, you have on one side Arab rhetoric (often quoted by pro-Israel
individuals, as a sign of Arab belligerence) versus Arab action. Arab words versus
actions are almost an exact opposite of Israel's words versus actions. If you visited
an Arab country and spent sometime learning their culture, you'll understand that
the threatening words of Arabs are mostly benign, serving only as a public display of
strength. Often those who speak the loudest and pretend to be tough, are perceived
as such. (Look for example at Arafat during one of his interviews telling the
reporter, in a tough language, "do you know who you're talking to?" That's a
sign of toughness and preserving one's honor). It is not necessarily proper or
right to do so, but if viewed out of its cultural context, it can easily be
misinterpreted by an observer as an indication of hostility.
While the Arabs speak tough words as a sign of muscle, their action are actually very
much reserved. Israel on the other hand, speaks about peace, but acts the opposite:
as a conqueror, claiming that its conquest are a response to Arab "aggression" --
aggression largely based on Arab rhetoric! Israel understood that formula, as well
as western culture's perception of hostile language, and used it to further its
supposed victim-acting-in-self-defense status in the eyes of the world. This is
perhaps best illustrated by the propagation of the "throw the Jews to the sea",
statement.
Actually, it was reported that whenever Israel publicly spoke about peace,
Egyptian president Nasser would put his military on high alert for an imminent
Israeli aggression! The only war that the arabs were "aggressors" was 1973 when
actually it was a war to liberate 1967-Israel-conquered land, NOT ENDANGER
Israel. Israeli leaders openly admit that.
Now, on to some quick historical perspective regarding Hizbollah/Israel/
Palestinians. Israel has committed a grave injustice towards the Palestinian,
mainly, and Lebanese and other Arabs secondly, in the name of self defense.
Israel has ethnically cleansed Palestine (not just my words, but those of Israel's
historians) of most of its Palestinian population and then demanded security
from the people whose livelihood it stole and continues to steal today via
home demolition, and land confiscation. If you disagree with me on that
premise --that the Palestinians are victims, while Israel is a victimizer--
and you don't want to hear anything telling you that Israel is an aggressor, then we're done
talking, because no use discussing something that will not help you change your
mind.
Otherwise, if you are willing to listen, then please study Zionism and Israel's
behavior from the sources I have provided, starting with the 1948 war, from the
newly opened Israeli archives (upon which, the historians, Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe,
Tom Segev, Avi Shlaim, based their famous books). Once you agree with me --based
on facts and your belief in basic fairness as prerequisite for living in peace with
your neighbors-- you'll realize why it is the Palestinians and Arabs in general
who are more justified than Israel in suspecting their enemy's desire to live
in peace.
To further explain the situation, an independent observer, recording all of
the recent history of the area, would see that: The bad actions and words by
Palestinians/Hizbollah/Arabs that you cite, ("throw the Jews to the sea") and
Palestinian terrorism, are REACTIONS of an oppressed, but weak victim, to
injustice inflicted --and continues to be inflicted-- by a regional super-power
throughout the past 50 years), then asking whether the Palestinian/Arabs want
to "throw Israel to the sea" is like asking whether the ant wants to crush an
elephant.
True peace must be preceded by sincere basic justice. I say basic because
there is no way to give Palestinians full justice for what they have been
through at the hands of Zionists. So, I speak of BASIC justice, which includes
ending Israeli settlements and confiscation of land and demolition of
Palestinian homes, sharing Jerusalem and the rest of Palestine/Israel including
resources such as water, equally, with the Palestinians. Above all, compensate
and allow the return to the millions of Palestinian refugees that were
dispossessed by Israel. It is ONLY after Israel pursues such a peace, founded
on basic justice and respect for the Palestinians, that one may observe and
judge for him/herself whether Hizbollah/Palestinians/Arab can be trusted to
want to live in peace.
The bad news, sadly, is that these pillars of justice, comprising a resolution
of the Israel-Palestine conflict, fall within what Barak and Netanyahu call Red
Lines or "four no's" (No to removing settlement colonies, no to sharing Jerusalem,
no to return to the June 4th line, no to return of refugees). So, the conflict
does and will continue.
Like I did to a previous reader, I here conclude with a reference to an important
article by an ex-Israeli soldier, to give you one idea about how to resolve this
conflict. I suspect you have seen it, because it was published recently by a major
daily, local to you. Here's the Boston Globe's article in question.
If you are interested, I can refer you to Jews in your area (Boston) who are
actively working for Palestinian justice. You should seriously think about
meeting and talking to them. The experience will enlighten you.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck in finding out the truth.
SAM
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